Transcript: SafferMaster and Lady Petra

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Mike: [00:00:00] Welcome to the human tapestry podcast, the podcast where we explore the rich tapestry of humanity through conversations about gender, sexuality, relationships, and sexual practices.

This week, I’m talking with SafferMaster and Lady Petra, a cis-gender straight and very kinky couple who live in a full-time power exchange relationship and host of the kinky cocktail hour podcast, SafferMaster is, a sensual sadist, and Lady Petra is a masochist and their relationship Saffer master is dominant while lady Petra’s submissive, but. 

Lady, Petra’s only submissive to Safir master, and she’s also a Dom for other men. We had a great conversation talking about their incredibly connected relationship, how they found each other after leaving long unhappy marriages, their current sex and kink forward relationship. The difference between a slave and a submissive and a lot of other topics. Now, if you want to hear more from them, be sure to check out their kinky cocktail hour podcasts, where they talk almost every day. 

You can also check out lady Petra playground, where you can get personal relationship coaching, tailored to kinky people. Or any of their other sites, which I’ll link to in the show notes. Now let’s get to the conversation.  

Yeah. So, um, SafferMaster and Lady Petra and you use a, he/him and she/her pronouns. Um, I’m not gonna make assumptions. So is that, are you both cisgender then or 

SafferMaster: [00:01:33] yes. Okay. Okay. 

Mike: [00:01:36] And I, I know from. Your podcast, The Kinky Cocktail Hour that we, that, um, you’re somewhat kinky.

Um, that’s a little bit, uh, but, um, sexuality, are you ah straight, both straight? Yeah, 

SafferMaster: [00:01:57] no, we both are both 

Lady Petra: [00:01:59] straight demisexual though. 

SafferMaster: [00:02:01] Yeah. I mean, we talk about other things, but we’ve never 

Lady Petra: [00:02:06] explored and I, and I’m we’re, we are in the journey presently, so that’s where we are. Now we have no idea what’s going to happen further down the road, you know?

So we’re trying to keep an open mind. 

Mike: [00:02:22] That makes sense. Um, gimme sexual, that’s been, I’ve talked to a few people that are Demi sexual and it, that seems to be well with all the sexuality. It seems like no matter who you ask, you’re going to come up with a different definition. So what’s. What is Demi sexual for you?

Are you both consider yourselves demisexual or is it 

Lady Petra: [00:02:43] if you consider that, 

SafferMaster: [00:02:45] you know, the Lady Petra’s front and center thing, I am, I’m more about sexualizing my relationship and I expect the person that I’m in relationship with to have the capacity to reason and argue and interact at a higher level of cognition.

So you might say I’m demisexual, but I don’t consider myself that 

what’s the other word sapiosexual. So sapiosexual is more the intellect from what I remember and demisexual is more, you have to have an emotional connection. So like even when I vet subs potentials, um, when they go through vetting, part of it is to see if power obedience will play into the effect.

But if I don’t have a connection with them, uh, I don’t want to play. It’s just like, I don’t, that’s, that’s a big thing for me in the front I had, when I met Saffer I felt it just immediately, like, it was, I was, it was intoxicating. I was drawn and we hadn’t even said anything each to each other yet. I mean, other than prior texting and things, but when we actually met in person, um, it was electric.

And so then I knew I can have a conversation with this person. I can continue down this path with this person. Yeah, 

Mike: [00:04:12] yeah, yeah. So you have to have that at least some kind of connection with someone before you can just go jump into play and, um,

just to kind of, cause. From what I know from, you know, we talked a couple of weeks ago now, I guess, on your podcast and I’ve listened to a few episodes of your podcast, um, have not tried any of the drinks yet though, but there’s a couple I want to try, but so you’re, you two are in a power exchange relationship 

SafferMaster: [00:04:49] where yeah.

Okay. Which, you know, it’s a DS dynamic, I’m a, what you would call a sexual or a sensual sadist, but I’m glad dominant through and through, you know, and lady Petra is a switch and in her case, she presents herself in our dynamic as a 100% of submissive and masochist. And she’s a masochist. Yeah. And. Yeah.

And in our coaching and in the rest of her life, she’s very dominant. And so, you know, there’s an opportunity for her to discover her full self expression outside of our relationship, because in our relationship, that’s a DSS dynamic and it’s a total power exchange. And I drive that relationship 

Lady Petra: [00:05:45] and I love that because, because I am dominant everywhere else, I love to submit to him, you know, he’s my chosen one to submit to.

And so that in itself is truly extremely powerful as a dominant woman, to be able to say, you’re that, you’re the one that gets my submission. So that just intensifies everything. And then my dominance is very selective. I mean, it’s, you know, it’s because of my professional career that I just don’t have the tolerance for people that are, um, posers, 

SafferMaster: [00:06:17] wishy washy.

Yeah. Hmm. 

Mike: [00:06:21] Yeah. And I actually want to ask you about that because I heard you talk about that before and 

SafferMaster: [00:06:30] being 

Mike: [00:06:33] a submissive, masochist and dominant. Are you sadistic in that dominance or is it just, um, 

Lady Petra: [00:06:41] um, a little bit because, yeah, but it’s, but it’s not like Safir sadism more in the world. It’s obviously more than the world control.

Cause I don’t my domination isn’t um, sexualized per se, it could be for the submissive, but I’m not getting, um, sexual gratification out of I’m getting power. Okay. Um, I’m fulfilling on that dominance power and then also the mentoring part of it, where you’re guiding someone to explore something new. Um, that’s the mentoring capacity that I have just innately.

So I love that part of it because that’s professionally, I’ve forever. I’ve been a coach professionally. So that’s, that’s how I’m wired. Um, but to 

SafferMaster: [00:07:33] be, well, let me, let me say this it’s differentiated from discipline, right? Yes. Like I’m a disciplinary and yeah. In the world of, um, dominance and, you know, sadomasochism, I’m a disciplinarian.

So I’ve had submissives where they’ve related to me purely in the world of discipline, corporal punishment for discipline. That’s not where she lives in. Her power aspect has a dominant for her. It’s more mentoring. 

Lady Petra: [00:08:05] And, and I, I obviously, depending on the sub where they’re at, they may need to be disciplined.

I mean, I really have no problem doing that, but to be a pure disciplinarian where let’s say you get a call, like speak to your one, the smoker. 

SafferMaster: [00:08:19] Sure. I had a smoker who wanted to quit smoking and she would present every week to tell me what her progress was. And every time she failed, she got three additional cane strokes.

So she worked up to a point where she had to choose, like, do I want 45 cane strokes? I don’t want to quit smoking. Right. So it’s really, um, using corporal punishment as a motivator for behavior change. Right? That’s what discipline and being a disciplinarian is all about. It’s really about disciplining somebody to lose weight, improve their relationships, improve their work situation, quit smoking, improve their diet, whatever.

Right. Whereas in the case of what lady Petros up to, she might take on a submissive, who’s very sexualized in their submission, but that she’s not having sex with them. She is basically done 

Lady Petra: [00:09:16] and they, you know, then they may get reward. Like they get to, you know, beat off or something like that. But for me, it’s not about, it wouldn’t even matter what the person looked like or who they were.

That’s not how I connect with someone. Once I go into dominant mode, um, There isn’t the intimacy relationship that’s happening. Like I have with Safir. It is more professional. It is more, there’s a goal in end for this person, even if it is that they want to submit, because that’s how they’re sexualized. I have no problem with that.

If that’s how they’re sexualized, I’ll have them submit and dominate over them. So they get the satisfaction of that. If that’s what they’re looking for, right. Or if they want to go on a journey to discover new kinks, uh, in a dominant, submissive way to explore that safely, that’s where I would come in 

SafferMaster: [00:10:11] depressed state, but you’re not going to let 

Lady Petra: [00:10:14] them pleasure you, but it’s yeah, but it’s yeah.

Yeah, exactly. So 

SafferMaster: [00:10:20] you’re almost 

Mike: [00:10:22] as far as sexually in a, in a monogamous relationship, as far as that 

SafferMaster: [00:10:26] goes with sex with 

Mike: [00:10:28] other people, you are you’re, you’re a Dom, but for you, it’s not a. You’re not getting gratification out of it. You just, 

Lady Petra: [00:10:40] yeah, here there’s lots of dominance, uh, dominates is particularly who do not have sex with their submissives at any level.

Like nothing. Now they may have their submissive, um, you know, w eat their pussy or something like that, because it’s part of the context for that submissive. But when you hear them speak about that, it’s much more detached than when they have, then when they talk about what they have with their partner or partners.

SafferMaster: [00:11:10] The fact is that the sex we’re having right now is so off the charts. Intense and hot there’s no room. 

Lady Petra: [00:11:16] Yeah. Well, I don’t, I don’t think I would be disappointed. It would be hard because it’s not just the physical parts coming together. There’s a, there’s been almost three years of connection and alignment where we’re almost having tantric energetic specs, there’s 

SafferMaster: [00:11:35] relatedness connection, there’s alignment.

There’s, you know, a space of real relationship present. And, and the thing is that, you know, what we’ve reduced it down to is there’s absolutely zero space between us zero and we’re committed to that and we’re committed that there’s zero space. And so we take action everyday to create zero space between us.

And th, and that creates an environment where teams we have are just ridiculous. They’re they’re, they’re not, you know, it’s not like the sex was hot because the sex is hot, the sexist hot, because we’re having sex in a way that’s so free to be. Self-expressed completely that it’s built on top of the pyramid.

It’s like the stock, the peak of the pyramid, right? You don’t get the peak of the pyramid without the pyramid. And the whole permit is there that 

Lady Petra: [00:12:26] everything like it’s transcended, you know, if you, if you get into fantasy world of what people think about, you know, I don’t know, I’m not gonna assume that everybody wants this, but I’m just saying, okay, a guy might say, I want these huge tits.

I want this ass here. I want this to be this in a parts. They look at sexist parts. Um, and I want his Dick to be this big w K it’s not that it is. Um, we talk often we’ve said cup pods, where we are. He’s in Dom space. I’m in subspace, we’re hardly talking. In fact, I speak in tongues at some point. So there’s not a lot of language happening other than what I’m jabbering about, but, um, it’s like colors, like I’m having sex where there’s a euphoric colored.

Like, like if you will an LSD trip, like that’s what it’s like every day, 

SafferMaster: [00:13:19] every day it’s remarkable. I mean, it really is. It’s taken 

Lady Petra: [00:13:23] us and we didn’t have this kind of sex before. I didn’t think this, I actually was very pessimistic about what relationship was and what was possible with sex, because I was having lots of sex in my marriage, but very unfulfilling, um, uh, extremely abusive marriage, but, but I, but I had kids.

So 30 years later I’m locked out of the marriage and then I’m discovering really? Cause I got married so young, my own sexuality, like for the first time. Literally, and yeah, I’ve done all the mechanical things, but now it’s like relearn, like, wow, it’s the whole book is open 

SafferMaster: [00:14:05] now. Yeah. It’s kind of like, we get into a space where we’re relating to each other as wild animals can start primal.

Let’s just be on primal, like a very thin, um, explanation for what’s happening. But it’s, it’s almost like we’re relating to each other in our most limbic system, relatedness it’s quite remarkable. And the thing is that if you would ask me, you know, two years ago, cause we were having been raped sex two years ago.

If you said to me in two years, the sex you’re having is going to be like, it’s like you’ve climbed Mount Everest and you’re having sex at that level compared to where you are now, is that possible would have said, no, it’s not possible because we’re already having, we’re having great sex. Right. But the thing is that it’s gotten.

It’s gotten to a point where it’s 

Lady Petra: [00:14:54] a spiritual experience. I hate to be that way about it, but that’s the best word I can explain that is like every day I get to have that experience. I don’t know if ever in my life I’ve had that type of 

SafferMaster: [00:15:06] joy. Yeah. We’re, we’re living in a way where each of us is completely unconstrained in our complete full self-expression as sexual creatures.

And it’s the most remarkable experience I’ve ever had on earth. 

Lady Petra: [00:15:22] Well, and that’s the whole point of us doing the podcast even was because after being in these 30 year, endless marriages and shifting completely, and then happy to find each other, that’s like one in a million too. To find this, whatever this is that we have, we’re like, Oh my God, I don’t know what this is.

And I don’t really know how to tell people other than our basic tenants that we follow, but we have to tell people, people have to experience what we’re experiencing. I just, I can’t, this isn’t, this can’t be a secret. This has to get out there, 

SafferMaster: [00:16:00] put it in the bottle. Right. I wish. And so, and so we have to like help people get to that space.

That’s what our, that’s our whole world of coaching. Right? Because we, cause we took a series of very particular steps in relationship that gave us the space to create each other in this very beautiful way where we get to be completely raw in our sexuality, such that, you know, we’re having super intense sex every day for about an hour.

There’s ultimately. Mo like she’s having, I don’t know, a hundred orgasms during that time, maybe. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. And, and then we’re, we’re climaxing together at the end and this was happening as an ongoing experience, except it gets more and more and 

Lady Petra: [00:16:52] more fulfilling. And we’re doing SNM during the whole thing.

And there’s very few words. I mean, it’s just these, this, this organic movement through the scene, it’s amazing 

SafferMaster: [00:17:04] in erotic sexuality, it’s quite remarkable. 

Mike: [00:17:08] It’s pretty amazing. And it sounds to me like, cause you talked about already being Demi and sapiosexual like, it’s almost like the sexist feeding the relationship and that relationship is feeding the sex and you just have that.

SafferMaster: [00:17:24] No, it’s true spiral. We spent hundreds of hours talking. If long before the long before the pod, the pod actually came about, because we would sit and have this conversation about what we’re up to and relationships and our dynamic and, you know, being real and authentic and connected, you know, and vulnerable, like all of those conversations were occurring over a cocktail.

And at some point we said, shit, you know, we’re having these great conversations. We should just record it. And so we just put it, we just put an iPhone between us and it started 

Lady Petra: [00:18:04] recording iPhone. 

SafferMaster: [00:18:05] And so for the first 50 pods, it’s all just recorded on an iPhone. You know, we didn’t know what we’re doing. We just never went to a studio or anything.

I had no microphones. We just put an iPhone between us had a cocktail. And you know, one of lady Petra’s self expressions is as a Somalia. So, you know, so she gets to conjure up a new cocktail every day and we try a cocktail and we just interact around that. And then that leads to a conversation. And then we just record the conversation and eventually we sort of ran out of words.

So we said, well, we should probably have a gastric tube. So we started having keep in mind at that point, we were, we were having this conversation every day. So for the first year he did a podcast 

Lady Petra: [00:18:50] every day and posted like the next day. Yeah. 

SafferMaster: [00:18:53] And you know what that’s like, right? That’s, that’s an exercise in discipline.

And, um, we’ve had incredible conversations. We really have, we’ve talked to some people in the world. We’ve talked to some amazing people who are doing really interesting things. We’ve met some amazing experts in the world of 

Lady Petra: [00:19:12] kink. We have community now, too. That was the big thing. Leaving our marriages. We were burned by our bar exes.

And so you immediately are isolated, losing community. And then he was a little bit ahead of me. So he had started already to develop community. And, but I was just going through the throws of it where. This is it I’m, I’m blackballed to everybody. And with this pod, we have people all over the U S and in Europe who we would actually go and have a drink, like, we’d say, Hey, meet us here.

We’ll have a drink. Let’s talk. And what a wonderful thing. I don’t know if I’ve been in that position like that in the way we have ever. We have 

SafferMaster: [00:19:58] amazing connections in Europe, you know, in Holland and England, Germany, Germany. I mean, it’s amazing right. All over the United States. And, and the thing is that one of the things that’s true about the kink community is that it is community because Kingston’s are like super relatable.

You know? Yeah. There’s a lot, there’s a lot that happens in the kink world in Manchester. In fact, so King says, I used to like hanging out together and the thing is like, you can’t go to like a regular restaurant with, you know, your regular group of friends and talk about how you got fucked in the ass last night and how you loved it.

But as a King stir, you can actually do that. You can actually have that exact conversation 

Lady Petra: [00:20:44] w and without, um, without anything being wrong, either, it doesn’t have to be like, you’re talking about it because even whether or not it’s titillate or not, you could be talking about it because you have a question about it or you’re sharing.

Right. And it’s a normal conversation. And we have those every day, every single 

SafferMaster: [00:21:03] day. And some of the people we’ve talked to are super skilled. I can talk to this guy desks. We talked to him, we’ve come to him a few times. You know, we talked to him about wax play and he’s like, Oh, let me tell you about that.

I, you know, if you don’t using 40 pounds of wax, you’re missing the whole game. Right. And it’s not, I’d never even considered 40 pounds away, 

Lady Petra: [00:21:25] but Dex to Dex is well-known like well-known, uh, for Winston flogging and those kinds of things, he’s got a whole book about it. He does videos. He’s, he’s brought two different types of conventions to speak 

SafferMaster: [00:21:41] anywhere in the world at his expense to come and teach you.

Lady Petra: [00:21:46] Yeah. So he’s phenomenal. And so we had interviewed him several times on whips and single tails and, um, then we interviewed him on wax and I’ll just tell you, now he might hear this later, but he lit up his voice lit up when he started talking about wax. So yes, he’s an expert at single tail, but he lit up.

When he talked about keeping the wax melted and how weapons were used and the type of things you can do by taking the wax off the nipple. And then you have to, if the nipples exposed, you must bite the nipple. And it just, I just think when you hear someone passionate like that, we were just giggling. We couldn’t believe it.

It was just so wonderful. And this guys he’s probably 70, 70, 60, late 

SafferMaster: [00:22:38] 67.

Mike: [00:22:42] Yeah, because I listened to that. I think that was one of the first episodes of yours I heard. So I had no idea who he was and I heard the episode. It was great. 

SafferMaster: [00:22:51] Yeah. I had no idea. Yeah, he’s a good guy, but he’s just, he’s just an example of the sorts of people we’re interacting with, you know, to this guy in Holland, who is a cock and bull torture guy, and he’s got the best are not, he texts, he texts Cox and he’s got this little thing device he created behind the tire cock-up and balls, and he’s got all this great art 

Lady Petra: [00:23:16] kind of like what you would call pallet boards where they’re, they’re different.

Lacings for CBT and. They’re artistic. Like he, he has a penis coming out of spaghetti and we’re like looking at the picture trying to figure out, okay, what did he do? Did he drill a hole on the plate? How did they get that? That’s amazing. And he doesn’t do it other than just for fun, but his, um, and he’ll teach anyone how to build these boards, which as a dominate, I’m like, yes, I want to learn how to build those boards.

Um, but he just did it on his own and it, it, you know, we talked to a knife guy. 

SafferMaster: [00:23:55] We actually, this was a great conversation. We had this conversation with this guy about a post that he wrote about power exchanges. And it turned out that he mentioned just in the conversation that his interlock knife play in breath place.

We had this whole conversation with him about knife play. That was way beyond anything I’d ever considered in the world of play. It was really amazing to listen to him and that, you know, like I, I was engaged and I’ve played with a previous submissive and it was nothing like that. I’m like, Oh, okay. Now, now I understand what nice play actually is.

You know? And so, you know, we’re on this journey of self discovery where we’re here, because we want to learn what there is to learn in the world of human sexuality. Like our entire conversation is about demystifying, kink and demystifying sexuality. That’s, that’s the point of our pod, right? Nothing’s wrong.

There’s never anything wrong. Like you might be somebody who likes to eat out of a dog bowl. That’s fine. That’s what you like. We don’t care. We have no judgment about it. Right. And the thing is that as we’ve like talk to these different King stirs, whether it’s about cock and ball torture, or whether it’s about diapers or whether it’s about latex or whether it’s about gas masks, you know, but as we talk to them, we kind of look at each other and go, Oh yeah, that sounds hard.

I, no, that doesn’t sound so hot because it’s our journey that we’re on. Right. 

Lady Petra: [00:25:21] Well, what was cool too? We talked to this guy. Totally. We didn’t. Know what to expect. We knew the topic would be about diapers and we’ve talked a little bit before, but we just didn’t know. And this guy was all about rubber pants and he went into great detail on how he first discovered his kink, which was way young when he was preteens, I think.

And. Talk about fascinating. I’m not into diapers. I’m not into that now. I haven’t decided yet a hundred percent if that’s not what I’m into as a dominant, but I, you know, I changed enough diapers in my lifetime. I’m not sure if I am into that. So we’ll see. But nonetheless, that conversation was fascinating because he just talked about his own experience of like when the plastic, the best kind of plastic pants, where to buy them, what brands are better, these ones rip it, the Lastic, these ones feel good.

And he goes, am I can wear these under my jeans and no one knows. And you know, at that moment I got it. I was like, that’s not something I would do, but I absolutely get. Him doing that. And he’s not trying to pull the wool over anyone’s eyes. It is really something he enjoyed. 

SafferMaster: [00:26:42] Yes. Yeah. It occurs for him as necessary for his life to be fully expressed.

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, this has been an amazing experience because she and I have been fully engaged in our dynamic every day. Have we probably, I think we just had this the other day, we’ve had sex, not a thousand times sex forward sex forward. Right. So in a couple of years, that’s a lot. Right. Right. And then, 

Lady Petra: [00:27:10] and weekly, weekly high protocol 

SafferMaster: [00:27:12] protocol, if we could talk about if you’re just dead, but then beyond that, we’re also exploring the world of sexuality, not what’s the world of it.

Lady Petra: [00:27:21] And a 24 seven is much different. You’ll talk to master slaves who were in a 24 seven, this is a similar situation there isn’t like. Off time. It isn’t like sometimes we’ve interviewed people who, and with no judgment, I’m just expressing what they say, um, who are dominant with submissives, whatever dah, dah, dah, dah, and then at a certain point, whenever that frequency is, as they say, you know, I just need an off button.

I need to stop because I just need to stop. It’s too much. I need to take a break and then they tell their submissives, I need a break. And without sounding judgey. Cause I’m not trying to, I’m only describing my scenario. I don’t, there’s no off. It’s not like Safra. I need a break. I can’t be your submissive right now.

That’s not it it’s. And it, I don’t have a desire for that either. This. For the first time in my life, this is my life. Like I went running today with my collar on for God, because for me, my caller’s no different than a wedding ring. I just it’s just there. Right. And I recognize people were staring at me and I was like, eh, they’ll, they’ll deal with it.

Right. They’ll figure it out. Right. Um, and more and more. I know when I first got my color, I was hyper sensitive about it and would in public, I would cover it with something there’s no holds bar. Now. It’s just, that’s what it is. That’s who I am. And when I get, because of my position, um, it would be more difficult than my work to do that.

Uh, because it’s a higher level work. However, as soon as I get to the point where it’s weekend or time off it’s back on, 

SafferMaster: [00:29:07] yeah, sure can remind me yesterday. And she presented herself to be used and she brought her collar for me to put it on because she had a surprise for me. You know, I mean, she’s, she spent a year in a color cause we, she worked at home for a year.

Lady Petra: [00:29:21] That was hard because then it’s like taking off a wedding ring or something. It was like really hard. Every time we took it off, it was like, ah, now I have a day color. The chain below, below my main color is my day color where I wear all the time and I have an ankle color and that’s on since the very first time we put it on, it’s never come off.

So I am, we also feel a connection at a deeper level where I’m always call it. There’s never a question 

SafferMaster: [00:29:48] that whether she was wearing her color or not, she’s colored, it doesn’t change. The color is just symbolic of something deeper, but it’s actually, 

Lady Petra: [00:29:57] it’s really hot to see the color on and we’re moving into protocol.

SafferMaster: [00:30:03] It’s an incredible symbol because it denotes the totality of our dynamic completely

Mike: [00:30:14] well. So many questions, so many areas I want to go there. Fascinating. Fascinating. I really want to, I’ve got some specific areas is that I want to kind of come back to, because I think these are things that like a lot of people have heard of or know about, but one of the things I really want to know, cause I’ve, I’ve heard you hit that it through this conversation and on your podcast and stuff, but that, that journey for you, I don’t know where you would start with it, but you’ve you two coming together in this relationship and building this power dynamic and to where you are today and growing in that I know you both have like amazing backstories with this.

I can tell. So just how did you, how did your journey to getting to this point? How did 

SafferMaster: [00:31:05] I wrote? So I did some work and I really considered what was missing in my life. And I concluded that what was missing was intimacy. 

Lady Petra: [00:31:15] Because explain the context before, because you were 

SafferMaster: [00:31:17] playing. So I was married to her vanilla woman who was a preacher’s kid and sex was kind of dirty and we didn’t really have a lot of sex at it for 10 years, man, no sex at all, just to have kids to, just to have kids.

Right. So that was her context and I was incredibly unfulfilled, but I had a whole history of being interested in kink. You know, it started when I was 16 and my first experience in camp was, um, witnessing a girl in my class, get paid. I grew up inside Africa in school with corporal punishment was part of the deal.

And the girl about Kane was sitting on my foot and I called her up to position. Two is like squaring them squirming on my foot. 

Lady Petra: [00:32:00] Yeah. Masturbating on your foot 

SafferMaster: [00:32:04] or in front of the class. And she got really red faced and then she came and sat on my foot and had an orgasm. And I 

Lady Petra: [00:32:10] was like six, 17. The context is.

She came back to sit. He moved his foot and she looks at him and she says, no. And then he put his foot back up and then she sat on it and continued to have an orgasm. 

SafferMaster: [00:32:23] It was my first experience in kink. And I’ve been curious about kink my whole life. Right. And through my marriage, I had interludes with King stirs where I reached out to somebody because it was, it wasn’t a time when, like there wasn’t like the internet.

So there was back page in the local magazine and the people would Craigslist. Well, it was really back page. So there was casual encounters. And then there was like kinking counters or something like that. And I would read these like advertisements and I would call these women and interact with them on the phone.

And I just realized this is not where my head is, but anyway, I ended up getting divorced from my ex wife. And as soon as I did. I’m Matt Gates decided I’m going to dive into cake big time. And I met a woman who was gifted to me by her husband. As she was an extreme masochist and he was a cock and they were in a poly dynamic and he, he found me and I basically offered his wife to me.

And so I met with her and I started playing with her and she was really the first person that I really got to explore my sexual sadism with. And I took it pretty far with her. And I discovered like I really wasn’t fulfilled in that experience. I mean, it wasn’t fulfilling 

Lady Petra: [00:33:50] for sure. 

SafferMaster: [00:33:51] I got that. I was having kinky sex, but I didn’t have that sense of fulfillment.

And so at a certain point, I’d got to realize that what was missing for me was intimacy. And what I wanted was in a relationship with kink plus intimacy. And so I did some coaching and I ended up writing. A seeking post that laid out what it was. I was looking for very, very specific, very specifically, you know, and I put it out on fat life and I talked to a bunch of women 

Lady Petra: [00:34:21] and it was only up for a few days.

Let’s note that it’s 

SafferMaster: [00:34:24] true. And, and I, and I got a message from you. 

Lady Petra: [00:34:29] So let, so then meanwhile, I’m in the background I had already been, so let’s go way back. I w 10 years before my divorce, uh, because I was with a narcissist abuser. Um, I knew I had to leave the marriage, but I was the breadwinner at the time.

And I also knew I had children. So no one knew the abuse was going on except me and him. Uh, and probably he’s a narcissist. So he probably doesn’t think there was abuse, but there was, um, So I made an agreement with myself cause that’s all I had. And I said, I just have to get these kids graduated. So I remember a very important moment, four years before my divorce, where my son was graduating and we were in the stands and I was crying and Hey, it made sense.

I was crying at his graduation. Everyone thought that’s what was going on. That’s not what was going on. What was going on is I said to myself, Oh my God, I have three more years to get to my daughter, you know, graduating. And of course, as a mother, I’m a mother. So I’m going to follow through with that.

That’s my agreement. I chose to have kids. I want to be responsible for my kids. I’ll support them, but really I was holding on to the idea that when graduation happened, I’m out, I’m out. And literally, even though the co the meeting of Safra at some point was kind of coinciding with that time. Pretty much, you know, kids graduate early June.

I was asking for a divorce in early June. Okay. So let’s go back a little bit before this. When I felt that one or two year itch, I decided that I knew that I was going to leave my marriage and that I needed to figure out who I was. And I started exploring, um, kink through chat rooms and stuff. Um, mainly just to figure out who I was.

Like, what is the stuff out there? Cause I was already doing kinky things, but I wasn’t attached to them. I had, I, because of abuse, I had separate by separating myself from the act. And so there was no connection with the act on anything sexual for me, it was survival. So this time in this format, I was able to just have conversations.

And eventually I met an online dominant who was on the East coast and I developed a relationship in the sense of becoming his submissive. And it was an online dynamic. So I get that. It felt safe because I was married. It felt like something I could do. And as I got into it, it got to the point where I could come on command and things.

And I, and I knew that I was never going to get with this person. It was very ma made, very clear and there became a point where I outgrew him. Uh, cause I’m pretty insatiable. And, um, I also knew I was coming close to like gonna ask him for a divorce and I wasn’t gonna mess with the pretend anymore. I was, I wanted something real.

I was, I was advanced enough at this point in just try it, you know? Cause when you’re online, you’re trying things yourself and you’re learning about yourself sexually. And so I was like, I got that. I figured this thing out. I know what I want now. And so I cut that off. Uh, and it was hard because I had been there.

This person had been there with me during times when I was in pretty bad abuse. Um, however, when I cut ties, I decided to be proactive and I went, I had never known anything about FetLife up to this point. So I’ve been playing on a free chat website. That had a room that was specifically for dominance and submissive for a year, year and a half.

And then I went looking like there has to be something more. So I look for more chats. And somehow when I got it deep into the searches, someone mentioned FetLife. Cause when you search for BDSM, FetLife, doesn’t just come up in the, it does now. But at that time it didn’t come up. It might’ve been four pages, five pages down.

Um, and so I went to it and I was like, I logged in and then the world opened and I was like, Oh my God, like you can search people by city. So then I became, it was probably three or four months before I was, I knew I was going to ask for a divorce. Um, I started looking. And looking in my area, I wasn’t just throwing a wide net.

I was like this, person’s gotta be near me, someone near me. And if you know anything about me in the pod, I’m extremely anal extreme. So as a dominant, I’m like a task master. And so I’m no different with myself. And so I started the A’s. I chose Seattle greater Seattle area as my location. And I started the days 50 miles away.

Yeah. And I started the A’s and only looked for dominance. I sorted all of it in the filter by that. And I went down for just each one sent, looked at their profile. If it was intriguing to me, I’d send them a message. So I did this until I got to F. And, uh, it over a week’s time. And then I was getting tired.

I was like, you know, I was getting a few hits, but a lot of things were coming back, like Dick pics and things like that. And I was like, yeah, this isn’t what I want, this, this isn’t it. And I almost said, well, I’m not going to find it here. This is fun. I’ll stay on this site because it’s kinky, but there’s, you know, there’s nothing in here.

And then I thought, well, why not just start at Z and go backwards. So I went to Z and then there’s some dumb letters in there, like acts and things. And I just skipped some of the letters and I ended up at S and really at this point I was exhausted. Like I was tired of asking people questions. And luckily he was essay because he came up quickly.

And then, you know, I gave everyone the same attention. I read there about, you know, I read is about, and then I stopped really cold in my tracks. And I was like, yeah, there’s no way someone wrote that. That’s that isn’t, that isn’t real, went back and read it again. I probably read it 10 or 12 times. And then I was like, Oh my God, this person has written this for me.

Like, this feels like it’s written for me. So then, but to me, but w but then I was real realistic about it. That’s the emotional response. That’s the Demi sexual side of me. And so then I went and looked at his pictures and saw all these different girls he’d been with. And then I went and looked at his writings and he was involved and I could see on his relationship, he was involved.

So I was like, Oh, he’s probably taken. Okay. Well, this sounds like a good guy though, that I could ask questions to. I mean, I’m really trying to find someone a good fit. Maybe this person can give me a clue as to, cause it sounds like he has a good fit. Can I find what you have kind of thing on the opposite side of the slash and I started a conversation.

SafferMaster: [00:42:17] Yeah. And that’s really how it started. You know, we just started chatting. Yeah. And that was like, 

Lady Petra: [00:42:24] and I was not trying to pull you away from anyone there wasn’t my intention because I recognized you. I was just really talking to you. Yeah. 

SafferMaster: [00:42:34] And, you know, we talked for, I don’t know, several months, and then eventually what happened was I recognized in the way she was speaking that she was both submissive and a masochist.

And I thought I would give her a text to see if that was worth, if that was accurate in my assessment. And if, and if it was worth continuing the conversation. Cause I was very clear. I wanted a 24, seven dynamic with a submissive masochist. That’s what I wanted. And so I gave her a test. I gave her a task 

Lady Petra: [00:43:06] and I didn’t know if I was 

SafferMaster: [00:43:07] that she didn’t know she was there.

Right. So I just gave her a task. And the task I gave her was to go to the store and buy a stick of ginger and rough it up and stick it in her ass and masturbate, 

Lady Petra: [00:43:19] peel it and fork it and put it in my ass, like figuring. Yeah. And then 

SafferMaster: [00:43:23] masturbate while she had that interacts. Oh my God. And videotape it and send me the video.

And I remember I was walking in the park with my dog and I got this video. I’m like, Oh fuck. Right. So that was the first thing she did it. So that’s discipline of obedience and masochism right there. But then secondly, she had orgasms while she was doing. Cause I’m okay. I’ve got to meet her 

Lady Petra: [00:43:46] well, and I’ll have to give you the context.

This was, he gave, he gave me a directive and he had given me a few others before, but very minor that he was testing me. But this time I knew it was a test. So I’m at home. My kids are around. My ex is around. I had to find a way to sneak out of the house and get into the motor home and do this in a short period of time to make it happen, like without interruption.

Cause as soon as I’m out of the picture, people wonder where I’m at and start looking for me. So it was highly stressful.

SafferMaster: [00:44:25] The last step in the task is called, it’s been a few years, but she literally had to just be with herself 

Lady Petra: [00:44:33] for about a minute after the orgasm, just sit 

SafferMaster: [00:44:35] there for like a minute with the ginger and just be with herself and then share what that experience was all about. And she described like this, this experience of being overwhelmed physically by the experience like a whole body warmed up.

And she just had this almost out of body experience in the moment. And I just realized like, You know, as I say this, what, what you want as a masochist and who a masochist says as somebody who sexualizes paid, right? 

Lady Petra: [00:45:10] Yeah. There’s no doubt that figuring is difficult. 

SafferMaster: [00:45:13] And as I say this back, I’ve had scenes with girls where I’ve came them or done things with them where it’s not what they want, that they agree to it, but it’s not what they want.

They don’t sexualize that Iceland, but this was something she sexualized and that was completely different. And I was like, okay, I got to meet this woman. And then we met in person. And in that meeting, she, she, um, mentioned it briefly at the beginning of the conversation. She literally had an experience of me that had her connect with me in a way that was unexpected for her.

I mean, she got like, I’m actually the dominant she’s been looking 

Lady Petra: [00:45:55] for. It was overwhelming. I know people think that’s like fantasy, but the reality is when he, cause we hadn’t seen really seen each other other than what I saw on pictures of you and videos and things, but not really seeing each other.

Right. And so the reality is when he walked in, I had no, I had kind of an idea of who might come in, but I was waiting and waiting and I was there for a good 10 minutes looking for someone to come in. Uh, and then he finally came in and he finally came in and he came around the corner and I remember it felt like someone had like knocked the wind out of me.

I was like, I mean, how did that isn’t that’s a demisexual for sure. That’s, that’s a demisexual is reading. And the reality is I told him this the other night too, just to reaffirm, I said, when you walked around the corner without knowing how tall you’d be, where you were in space, that kind of thing, what you would wear, whatever.

Right? It wasn’t that his dominance like swelled over me. And I was like, Oh fuck. This is, I recognize I was vulnerable in that moment to someone who is so dominant. And he hadn’t said a word, all he did was walked towards the 

SafferMaster: [00:47:09] table. Yeah. And the thing is that some of the Valley and I, and w w w we were just literally having this conversation the other night.

And so the way it occurred for me was there was an energy present. And like, I saw her, like, I completely saw her for who she was. And for the first, I don’t know, six months of our relatedness, I would say to her, what I didn’t relate to you as that person I relate to as this person, because she had a way of being, that was her experience of being alive so far.

And then she had who she really was authentically, which is the submissive woman who I’m related. Excuse me. And I just related to her. In a way that I related to her that had nothing to do with her past. So there was like a real heartbreak between who she thought she was and who she actually is. And I just saw her as who she actually is.

And I was able to pull that toward me, that all the time. And there were opportunities we had throughout the course of our experience together, where I would just say to her, I’m sorry, I don’t relate to you that way. You know, I’m not going to interact with that person. Who’s showing up right now. I’m going to wait and wait and wrap with this person.

And so on a gradient, we just created our dynamic over the course of time. And it really was grounded in this very simple concept where there’s literally nothing wrong and 

Lady Petra: [00:48:37] no space. And we can’t have space between we couldn’t let space exist because we had both 

SafferMaster: [00:48:43] been in marriage as well. We had a lot of 

Lady Petra: [00:48:44] spots of space ourselves 

SafferMaster: [00:48:47] in our spouses, lots of 

Mike: [00:48:48] content.

Okay. So spaces like you’re talking about emotional space, right? 

Lady Petra: [00:48:55] Where you’re making up stories about your partner. There’s something wrong. You aren’t telling them what’s wrong or your 

SafferMaster: [00:49:02] breath, 

Lady Petra: [00:49:03] whatever. We’re in the worst phases of our marriages, we both had complete contempt and, and likewise from our partners.


SafferMaster: [00:49:12] we just 

Lady Petra: [00:49:13] decided want that again. I just 

SafferMaster: [00:49:15] decided that I made the, the, the clear, determination that in any relationship I had going forward, it’d be no space in that relationship. Which means that I get to say what there is to say, even if 

Lady Petra: [00:49:31] it doesn’t mean that there aren’t things that come up, because we all have stories that create little mock green monsters in our head.

And then we say something, but that’s the point. As soon as it comes up, I need to say, Hey, I’m, this is probably not true, but I’m feeling this way right? At this moment, for whatever reason, I’m vulnerable, I might I’m insecure and I’m feeling this. And then you can dispel that, right? Because we live in integrity.

It’s not. Yes. Ma’am yes. Yes. Seeing someone to death to make a piece them to make them feel better, even though that’s not the truth. I mean, I’m a huge stickler on integrity. Let’s talk 

SafferMaster: [00:50:11] about integrity. So integrity is agreement three minutes and we’ll get to our word. That’s what integrity is. The 

Lady Petra: [00:50:19] example would be one of your taskings for butt plugs.

Okay. An 

SafferMaster: [00:50:23] example would be. 

Lady Petra: [00:50:26] The reason I say that is cause I’ve only missed it once. I know, 

SafferMaster: [00:50:30] example would be that we have an agreement that she wears a backlog when she’s out of the house, without away from you, away from me, that’s an agreement we have. And the reason that that’s there is so that she’s present to that I’m with her through the course of the day.

So first of all, it takes something to worry about for eight hours. Yeah. Okay. Secondly, secondly, she has to send me a photograph of that picture of that backlog every day. And she has to be present to who she is for me in that conversation. So that’s all part of that experience, right? We haven’t agreed.

Lady Petra: [00:51:11] And in the early phases, it was a, it was a 

SafferMaster: [00:51:14] sexual kind of sexual 

Lady Petra: [00:51:16] challenge kinky. But what I mean for me is a sub, it was a challenge I had to, you know, It’s I do multiple things in my day. And the buck plug is, 

SafferMaster: [00:51:27] uh, 

Lady Petra: [00:51:29] there during those multiple things that I’m doing and having to adjust to them, but now I’m trained.

So now it’s like no big deal. And 

SafferMaster: [00:51:38] so there was one day over the course of three years where she missed the backlog. So it’s just out of integrity, right? So that’s a break in integrity. So integrity is an agreement. And so when there’s a break in integrity, there’s an impact an impacts on her. It has an impact on me.

And so the way you resolve and you get back into integrity as you deal with the impact, and then there’s a consequence and you deal with the consequence. So our experience together is sourced in integrity. That there’s a basic agreement that we have about our dynamic that we live into every day. And it’s not like.

She’s got to check a box on a wall, right? That’s not the issue. It’s really just that we live in a space with as, and temporary and out agreements. And when we have integrity, we just say, you’re out of integrity. 

Lady Petra: [00:52:34] This is, this aligns with early on. When I met him and it started the conversation with him. I think I was.

Um, dearly departed or something was my profile name on fat life because I was listening to the main at the time. And I was like dearly departed, like in the sense of, I was departing my marriage and moving onto something else and I am super competitive. My dominant side comes out with other submissives even because I’m going to win.

And, um, that’s how I first experienced kink in the sense of being told by tons of people before I met Saffer about what was considered submissive and what a rights submissive is. And, and, uh, because I was going to, when I decided I would be a slave, because that’s how, that’s how you win right in, in the sub world.

In the, in the, really, the most sub in the, in the real catty discussions that are happening, not the authentic, but the catty, the people that are role playing. That’s the context. Now we have interviewed some slaves and they’re real slaves. And I get it. I don’t necessarily think I aligned with it, but I get it.

But at the time I was telling him fully, I’m a slave, I’m a slave, I’m a slave. You know, this is what, and even when we first started our early scene, I was clean. I had to, I had to first get claimed by him. And it was a huge, um, marking PRI protocol ceremony. And then after that, we were playing, I was still on the line of slave and I know it didn’t work.

I didn’t like the word slave, quite frankly. I think it’s a terrible word. And I kept looking for other words, but there’s Kagera and other things, but a lot of those aligned with Gorian and other, some of the other terms aligned with leather and I wasn’t bad either. So I was like, I don’t want to just take another name.

And we were trying to figure out a name because I was submissive like a slave, but I had agency and I didn’t know that until one scene. I think he was tired of hearing me talk about slave. And he went into, we went into a high protocol scene and he carved with a knife. I said to her, I’m just going to 

SafferMaster: [00:54:53] use your lecture slides.

Yeah. But you keep talking about being a slave. Okay. Let’s use you like you’re a slave. Let me show you what it 

Lady Petra: [00:55:00] is. How is rough handled? I remember 

SafferMaster: [00:55:02] that. Yeah. I ref handled her 

Lady Petra: [00:55:04] and, and then you carved slave in my back with a knife. And I remember I took it because I’m obedient. I just remember though, my mind racing through a million things, thinking it’s just my life is this my life.

And then I started considering the real reality of things. Like as simple as when you’re a slave, you have no agency. So the reality is killed. I be with him forever, let’s say, and never sleep in a bed 

SafferMaster: [00:55:36] again. Well, today she said, I’m going to go for a run. Now, if she was a slave, she would’ve had to have said, is it okay if I go for a run or do you 

Lady Petra: [00:55:44] want me to go on a run?

SafferMaster: [00:55:45] And so that’s my view is she’s my submissive, not my slave. Right. And so I, I expect her to have agency. And what is agency? Agency is the freedom to make choices. She is free to make choices, right. 

Lady Petra: [00:55:58] And, and for me it was, I know the bed’s not a big deal, but I was really about. Will I never sleep in a bed.

I’ll have to sleep on the carpet or the hard floor and just that’s for the next, what, 30, 40 years. And I thought, I don’t know if I can do that. I mean, let alone, he just carved slave in my back, but I was sitting there thinking the simple things, like maybe I’m never allowed to use a toilet again. I have to go in a bucket.

Um, and so I started thinking like, and maybe he gets tired with me and he makes me a footstool and I’m a footstool forever. And he has other submissives. I mean, so it forced me to think about what I want in a DS dynamic. And I wanted intimacy. I wanted relatedness, I wanted alignment and connectedness. I needed in order to give my submission to someone I had to have that.

And it became crystal clear. 

SafferMaster: [00:56:56] Yeah. Yeah. And so out of that grew a much bigger conversation about relationship. And see the thing is that when you have a relationship where there’s no space and you have integrity and you live authentically and you are fully self expressed, she has to just be who she is.

And I get to explore that with her in this dynamic. Right. And so, so I’ll tell her, you know, go get ready and she’ll go off and get ready. And she gets ready to have all three holes. 

Lady Petra: [00:57:27] And sometimes I come back express with chopsticks on my nipples or whatever, when it’s not high protocol, I have the ability to freedom to express my sexuality.

And so he’s often surprised and she wants, yeah, 

SafferMaster: [00:57:43] because I’m not, I’m not so picky you. And that I, I expect her to do this or that specifically. Cause my sexuality is my own sexuality 

Lady Petra: [00:57:53] and my, well, you’re a dominant that doesn’t need to prove your dominance. You’re already done 

SafferMaster: [00:57:57] any privilege, anybody. Yeah.

So what I want is for her to explore her own. Sexual experience of herself because you know, when you consider that we have like built relationship except sex forward came forward and we get to have sex routinely every day and we get to be completely self-expressed and we get to just be fulfilled in that self expression.

I’ll give you an examples. So. Uh, we saw a picture. I saw a picture on fat life that somebody had posted that said in lonely for a month. And I said, kind of texted her. And I said, Hey, we should probably do this. Right. And so it was before April. So then, you know, for the next couple of weeks we talked about it and then we decided to have anal, April.

Yeah. So we negotiated, which is what Kingston’s do. We negotiate about how the scene’s going to go out. And we negotiated for a month of pussy chastity, and so only anal sex for a month. And you know, it was the most incredible experience because you discover yourself as an anal actually got present to that.

She can actually come eat her ass. She got present to that, that wasn’t available to 

Lady Petra: [00:59:22] her because there’s too many other things happening and you’re focused on all these other parts when it’s less myopic. You get to tease it apart. You get to be with it. You get to say, Oh my God, when he’s I recognize now when he’s in my ass, he’s pushing it on the back of my G-spot.

Oh my God. That’s like a male prostate. You know what I mean? And so then I’m like, well, how can I use that to my advantage? How can I make that part of what we’re doing? And then it just became heightened. 

SafferMaster: [00:59:55] Now, now we’re into may. 

Lady Petra: [00:59:56] Now 

SafferMaster: [00:59:58] that would have been six now in may. That includes her experience of anal April, which means that we’ve had anal sex for two and a half years.

But it’ll sex now is different than it was a month ago. Completely because of that experience, she’s now present to her ass as a sexual organ. 

Lady Petra: [01:00:17] Well, and this is the thing I want to bring up too. Just so anyone listening there’s hope out there. I mean, I was having anal sex before in my abusive relationship.

But I had no attachment to anything sexualized about that. Other than being an item that was used. And now I own the sexuality that changes everything. I own it. Yes. He’s the dominant I’ve given him that there’s trust there I’m vulnerable to him, but he also he’s made it very clear from day one. He doesn’t break his toys.

So the idea is I can’t afford to trust him. He tells me he doesn’t break his toys. And if we have an issue, if there is an issue, okay. We don’t have space. So we talk about, we decompress after scene and say, Hey, you know what more lube is better or whatever. Right. If 

SafferMaster: [01:01:17] she’s safe, safe words out, like if she says yellow, whatever, there’s nothing wrong with that.

That’s fine. It just, you know, my concern as a Dom is that she’s fulfilled sexually because I want her to show up for me every day as a submissive. So I can’t treat her in a way that doesn’t work for her. It’s got to work for her. So she shows up voluntarily every day. That’s the 

Lady Petra: [01:01:43] difference. If you hear that he’s a dominant and he’s saying that you’ll often hear dominant, say it’s my way or the highway, but let’s be realistic.

You’re having two individual people come together, no matter what you do, they’re in their own heads. And if it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work and you find people losing submissives or what have you, right? Because there’s there there’s space there. And the reality is I could have like internalized something that was bothering me about a scene and not said anything.

And then what is it going to do? It’s going to fester and become a open wound that if I let it go long enough, it’s eventually going to build a contempt. And that kills everything 

SafferMaster: [01:02:28] a lot about creating relationship. And we actually live a created relationship. So what does that mean? It means that I’m responsible a hundred percent for our relationship.

She has no responsibility to it zero, but guess what? She’s responsible a hundred percent for our relationship. Yeah. Yeah, the 

Lady Petra: [01:02:50] 50 50 thing is complete bullshit. It doesn’t 

SafferMaster: [01:02:54] work. So she starts every day by writing me a little love note every day, so I can get up. I work from home. So I get up to my computer and I sit down with my coffee and there’s a little left note there.

And that starts my day. She creates me newly every single day

and my responsibility is to create her, you know, so I might send her a message. I’m I talked to her, I might interact 

Lady Petra: [01:03:22] with her. Tell me, good morning. And then I send you my butt plug pick. And there’s a lot, there’s a whole kind of rhythm 

SafferMaster: [01:03:30] it’s protocol, right? So all of King lives in world, in the world of protocols.

And so we’ve created protocols and work is workability in our protocols that worked for her and they work for me and they source our relationship because. We have 45 minutes or an hour of super hot sex that doesn’t happen on its own. It happens in a broader context of relationship. 

Lady Petra: [01:03:56] And then protocols are forever time.

I don’t know how long per we lose ourselves in protocol 

SafferMaster: [01:04:01] samples. So we have, we do a protocol scene about once a week and what’s, what’s in a protocol seen, well, I use chains instead of other things which are so hot. Yeah. Marker with a K, right. Cause I’m Mark my possessions. She belongs to me. So I Mark her and she presents herself with a cane to be marked.

And that begins a scene that may take an hour or two, but it’s a much more involved experience. She drops D paint, a sub space. I get deep into Dom space and we just interact like these creatures that are. Completely re you know, resolved around sexuality in a very unique way. It’s quite remarkable. 

Lady Petra: [01:04:51] I don’t know how to explain this.

So like I told him one time, I said, when I fall into my deep space, you know, I’m not the porn star and that’s, you know, the whole beautiful, whatever contrive. I mean, it’s very animal. I am speaking in tongues, I’m native American. So there’s things I don’t even know about myself that are coming out in language because there’s actually a language that’s coming out of me 

SafferMaster: [01:05:26] that she’s accessing deep.

Ancient like relationships with her culture. I’m speaking a 

Lady Petra: [01:05:38] language because they keep coming up. The same language comes up. It’s not like it changes. It’s the same actual 

SafferMaster: [01:05:43] words, 

Lady Petra: [01:05:44] but it’s like a red flag. And I say things to him. I look at him and hold his face and say whatever I’m saying, and I’m looking at him like I’m trying to communicate and he’s just with, and he’s a Dom space.

So he just, you know, 

SafferMaster: [01:05:57] words that don’t have meaning in English that come from, uh, you know, ancient genetic, genetic memory of some sorts. It’s bizarre, but it’s really interesting cause it, cause it occurs regularly. But 

Lady Petra: [01:06:11] what’s amazing about those. What I was trying to get to is it isn’t the porn video. I mean, anyone seen that would say what’s happened, needed, she possessed what’s happening with this right now.

You know what I mean? But the reality is because we make nothing wrong. This is the first time in my whole life. I can express myself in some kind of deep submissive sexual state that is not textbook pretty, that I am just ex whatever’s coming out is coming out. And I, and I actually feel for the first time in my life, because I am expressive for the first time.

But, but I feel no shame like there, like I don’t sit there and think on two, headed about it and think, what does that sound I’m making? What is that? What God, that sounds weird. I’m not in the two heads. It’s one head and I’m actually just in it and he’ll tell me later what’s happening. 

SafferMaster: [01:07:06] Well, she was very suggestible when she’s in some space, so I can take her in places that, you know, she’s not used to being in.

Yeah. Yeah. That’s pretty interesting. That kick is kind of cool actually. Yeah, it does. It does create, does create a way of relating to another human being. That’s outside of our very civilized way of relating. 

Lady Petra: [01:07:33] Never thought this was possible after our marriages, they had to end it. There’s no way we, I was very cynical.

I was like, there’s no freaking way. All those poems and stories are written about love. No one knows what that is, but I’m really aware now that there are probably people that have experienced this and that’s why those things are written because there’s something there that I, as a vanilla, authentic person was not getting.

When I’d read those things before I was like, Detached from them and saying, yeah, it’s nice words, but it doesn’t really have meaning it’s not real. It’s like Disneyland. And now I’m like, Oh my God. Yes. That’s exactly what it means. That’s exactly that person must’ve experienced how wonderful poet got it.

At some point that poet got it. Well, I’ve got 

SafferMaster: [01:08:29] to say it like this, so. As human beings, we generally have two ways of being in the world. You have the way you are in public and the way you heard in private, right? And the way you are in private is more your authentic self. And the way our in public is more natural pretend self, right?

So, so we go further, we go, you actually have stories that you’ve created that you tell yourself, because life is something that occurs in language. Like you got language, and then you got stories and you made up those stories that I had a story when I was three years old. Cause I have a beaten by my mom that I wasn’t lovable.

And so that story permeated my life. It permeated it. And so every relationship I had to interact with me inside of that story, that’s I have, if you look at my life, I have a series of broken relationships over the course of time that all occur inside of a context called I’m not lovable. And it wasn’t till I was able to give that up.

And make up a new story called actually am lovable. And I was able to get related to somebody who could actually love me. Does that makes sense? Right. I could actually experience the lab and see every human being you encounter mostly lives inside of this story. Yeah. And it takes something to get outside of that story that you’ve created to live life newly and create life newly and created without that story, being the context of your life.

That gives us the access to this incredibly powerful. 

Lady Petra: [01:10:03] Oh. And it takes work. I get lots of people that want, you know, humans are about the quick fix pill or the gimmick that the tips and tricks to get there. That’s not, it. It’s not, it, it is practicing it every day. We wake up and say, it’s a new day. I’m creating him newly today.

How am I going to create him today? There is no space. If there’s space, I need to talk about it. I mean, it’s intentional relationship movement constantly in order to keep the health of the dynamic front and center, 

SafferMaster: [01:10:38] you know? So, so we worked on this, right? We worked on creating a coaching paradigm cause we’re both coaches to help people gain the skills that they need to have access to what we have accessed.

So it’s about a self exploration to really get present to who you are at your most authentic self. Which actually lets you be present to what it is you need and want because outside of being completely authentic, you just think you need and want, sir. But when you actually are your authentic self, you actually are present to what you actually need.

Lady Petra: [01:11:14] You should share like the whole Polly we pushed the poly thing early on. Yes. That’s a great example. 

SafferMaster: [01:11:20] All right. So here’s an example, right? So it’s all good. So he doesn’t say it has an example. So I believed because of my sexual predilections that there wasn’t one submissive who could take care of my needs and it seemed impossible to me.

And so I believed that I needed multiple. You orchestrated that and Al castrated it. I created multiple partners to take care of different aspects of my needs. Right. And what’s occurred. Is in my relationship with lady Petra, I’ve actually been able to explore, you know, almost all, if not all of those needs so that I actually am present to what I had was a story called.

I need somebody separate for each aspect that I need, versus somebody who’s just willing to be present for me as my submissive and mass of expression. So I actually discovered, like, I’m not really polyamorous that that’s not really who I am, but you believe that I believe that I was, but actually it’s not that it’s really just that I just want to have somebody who’s present for me in the way that I show up.

Lady Petra: [01:12:37] And, and it wasn’t me shaming him into that. Cause he said who he was and I was like, okay, you know, I wasn’t, but I was like, okay, I don’t know how this will play out, but let’s see what happens. And. I think the other layer on that is the intimacy that we both cause it wasn’t just him. We both allowed to happen.

And remarkably, I thought I was intimate and fully on board way before him and come to find out after this whole process, we went through seriously. Several months later is when I had a real epiphany and I had to stop everything. Like we were watching a show or something. I had to stop him and say, uh, I recognize that I’ve thought I was being this and 

SafferMaster: [01:13:31] I haven’t actually 

Lady Petra: [01:13:32] met you.

It, I recognize, I kept telling you, I was letting you love me. And I was accepting it and taking it in and in this moment that for whatever reason, I don’t know if you were watching something or something, but I was fully clear on it. And then I felt. He didn’t make me feel bad, but I felt myself disappointed with myself and almost shame myself in the moment.

Cause I was like, I had sat here, all righteousness saying I was all on board and I had all these feelings. I expressed them to them. What I learned from that was that is how I saw myself. I didn’t have any other information to know there was something different, but in the moment when I did, I couldn’t unsee it.

And then I was, I had to admit to him completely for no space to say, I have to admit something to you. And I don’t know why it’s coming out now, but I have, I have to be forthcoming with you. And I told him, and at that point, everything changed. 

SafferMaster: [01:14:31] Yeah. So I had told her that I’m going to let her hold my heart in her hands.

And she gets to hold a knife in the other hand, right? Hold the heart. And one hand hold a knife in the other. And she was like, huh, I’m not letting you do that. 

Lady Petra: [01:14:47] I wasn’t letting him do that. Yeah. Yeah. 

SafferMaster: [01:14:50] So, you know, it’s been a journey. It didn’t occur overnight. It wasn’t like, you know, he has a formula for you to do or some constantly worked on it.

It takes work. It takes actual flag, emotional and, and, and actual face-to-face conversation to deal with how we interpret the world because there’s human being. We create the world that we interpret, let you see the world that you see. And when you discover what there is to discover as kind of, you’ve been living with a motorcycle helmet on and heal, how do you see out the visor?

And then you discover what there is to discover. And you can see like all the way around, like it’s a 360 degree view, you know, and it takes an effort to do that because as human beings ends, we have like three periods of time in our lives. When we actually attached to certain stories we have about ourselves, the first one was we were really little and our parents say no to us.

A couple of stories about that. And then when we’re a middle age, teen or young teen and our friends abandoned us, we make up a story about that. And then we were a young adult and our parents say, you’re on your own. We’ve got a story about that. And those three moments in time, give us our self. Um, discovering identity.

And you know, you’re either like the funny kid or you lack the, you know, the clown and the smart kid or whatever, right. You expect to have these stories and then you, you interact with the world. Like, that’s the truth, but it’s not actually the truth. It’s just something you made 

Lady Petra: [01:16:28] up. And that’s, what’s amazing when you figured out that you think no, no other people reinforce my story.

No. What you do with stories is you look for instances all the time to find up from your story. Cause you want evidence to prove your stories, right? This is all subjective. 

SafferMaster: [01:16:45] So for example, I told you earlier, I said, I didn’t believe that I was lovable. Right? So I’ve got married to this woman and I spent the next 30 years finding evidence that she didn’t love me.

And so when we finally got divorced, you haven’t loved me for the whole time. He has, he has a bunch of evidence 

Lady Petra: [01:17:02] cause you’re going to be righteous about it. 

SafferMaster: [01:17:04] You’re going to be right. And you’re going to be righteous about being right. And you know, ultimately. Stepping into this dynamic and creating the possibility of a sexual at kinfolk with no space, nothing wrong dynamic, 

Lady Petra: [01:17:19] clearly opposite of what we lived completely 

SafferMaster: [01:17:23] opposite.

We just live in the space where we’re having a killer sex every day for three years and, 

Lady Petra: [01:17:29] you know, alignment and companionship and friendship. That’s amazing. Yeah. 

Mike: [01:17:36] Um, I did want to ask, um, so one of the things I’ve noticed you, you are the second full-time power exchange, couple I’ve met and both of you, and I don’t know, in my vast experience of two. 

SafferMaster: [01:17:58] The sub, if 

Mike: [01:18:00] I didn’t know you were a sub, I wouldn’t know that to interact with you as a couple.

Like, I’ve noticed that, you know, and I know because that relationship dominance submission when it’s done right, is based on that trust, especially there has to be trust in the Dom that you need. It’s not going to go past those boundaries and there’s trust in you because you have the ultimate level of control with the safe word.

SafferMaster: [01:18:30] And 

Mike: [01:18:32] I don’t know, like, you know, the picture that, that culture gives us a sub is, you know, the submissive or make eye contact. Very, and I I’ve 

SafferMaster: [01:18:41] seen relationships like that. 

Mike: [01:18:44] Usually not time, not all the time, but, and I don’t know. It just seems like there’s a level of confidence. In the sub that you don’t normally see, even in a vanilla relationship.

Um, I don’t know where I’m going with this. It’s something. 

Lady Petra: [01:19:02] Oh, I get it. I get what you’re saying. Um, I’m not going to discount that there are subs out there. There are more on the mousy side, I guess. Um, but being submissive is not a weak. I had to learn that, um, I kept trying to win the submissive game by being a slave because I thought I could win in the sense of being more than other people, because I’m extremely, um, I come from a background of elite athletes.

So I went, that’s what happens? You win. I’m very dominant. I win. And so I was going to win the sub game. And the reality is, is I recognized these people can’t tell me how to be a sub. I get to decide how I’m going to be a sub, just like anyone can tell, I can’t tell you how you’d be a dominant or how you’re going to be bisexual, or how are you going to whatever.

I mean, they can, people are amazing and think they can, yeah. Tell you a lots of things, but the reality is, has no power. And as soon as I understood that I was out of those conversations with all these subs who were talking about how to be a better sub. And I thought, you know what it is, it comes down to your dynamic.

You have agreements with your dominant, your dominant has a style. You have a style. It, it needs to be aligned. Luckily, Sephora and I are aligned. I mean, our it’s uncanny. We grew up in different countries and he did have different childhood than I did, but the, in cantinas of similarity between the way we were raised and the way our marriages went was.

Profound. And so then when we come together, we have a similar context of what we don’t want and what we want. And I wasn’t interested in being with a dominant who wanted to be a task master just because he wanted to be a task master. Uh, some dominance want to be task masters in order to get to discipline.

If that’s an agreement between you and the sub, I think that’s fine because that’s an agreement, but some dominance use it as a way to get to the end that they want, which is really disciplined. Um, and what’s amazing about Safir in this is just speaks to his assuredness as a dominance. He recognized early because we, we played with different things with me on discipline.

I’m a pleaser, I’m a service up. He’s extremely obedient to a fault. And so when I get disciplined, it’s pretty, um, horrific for me in the sense of taking me backwards. It doesn’t mean I don’t deserve punishment. I have been punished by Sapphire even. Um, however, on the times where I have been punished, I deserve those punishments.

And I, even though there wasn’t agreement because it’s a punishment, I understood why I was being punished. 

SafferMaster: [01:22:03] It resolved it, the group evolved, I should say around 

Lady Petra: [01:22:07] very good integrity. And I’m all about integrity. So it was unquestionable for me. I was like, yes, I have to be punished because it’s going to punish her just to punish her, but just to punish me because I don’t put.

I didn’t do the dishes or 

SafferMaster: [01:22:21] instead of that, she’s, she’s not, she’s super obedient, super disciplined. 

Lady Petra: [01:22:25] I mean, if I miss something, it’s really because I’m going to tear myself up about it and it probably wore way more than Safra could do. And the reality is there had to have been a circumstance. I was ill. I was running out of time there, but not because I was being lazy.

I was running at a time because I was overloaded. There’s something happening there. And so 

SafferMaster: [01:22:50] our entire dynamic functions, because I’m locked into discipline and she’s mega discipline. So, so that’s his, 

Lady Petra: [01:23:01] that’s like his, I don’t actually have to do any his like turn on is that he has a submissive. That’s so disciplined and it’s not like I do that to feed him.

Really. The reality is if I just think speak of myself, Pat is my love language. I. Have done that since I was a little kid, I would, you know, little kids would go play with each other. I was the oldest of 25 grandchildren. Instead I would go into my grandmother’s kitchen and completely redo her whole kitchen, like immaculately clean it.

And I thought that was fun. And what I loved was the moment. She was surprised when she walked in and found it all to put together. And I was doing that at five and six. Um, that’s wired into me. So for me, the things that maybe some subs need to be taught, that’s just already me. That’s just me. And that is, I want to do it because that’s my expression of love.

SafferMaster: [01:24:01] I’ll give you an exact, so I say to her today, you’re going to edge every 30 minutes for 30 seconds with a Hitachi. And I don’t have to say anything else about that. That’s what will happen is she’ll send me a text every 30 minutes telling me she asked for 30 seconds and that’ll go on until I tell her to stop, because 

Lady Petra: [01:24:20] it’s a turn on for me to be obedient also, it’s it?

You know, it feeds us both. It’s not just being obedient for the sake of being obedient. It’s hardwired into me. It’s a turn on, I mean, I’m sure when I was five or six, it was a turn on to see my grandmother opened the door and find the kitchen. I mean, I had a joyful moment then. So that’s the same experience I’m having these joyful moments of like, and I was in a marriage where I would do that anyway, because that’s my love language.

And no one would notice. So it was just on deaf ears for 30 years. And so for the first time I’m expressing myself in someone appreciates what I’m doing, not feel like I need brownie points, but that they recognize that’s my expression. 

SafferMaster: [01:25:07] That’s right. So it’s kind of a big deal and you want to be acknowledged for something I can acknowledge you and you’ll, you’ll experience an emotional experience about it, but I acknowledge you as somebody who’s interested in others who is a contribution whose solve expressed.

Who’s exploring the world. I acknowledge you as somebody who is like sharing yourself with the world freely. That’s huge to be acknowledged. Right? You have to go. Yeah. Yeah. I’m all those things. It was one of those things. Well, I have knowledge her every day about everything she’s up to because it fulfills on who I am as a dominant, like, what I want is what she’s bringing every day.

You know, there was a conversation early on about the notes. He writes me and she was like, Oh, I hope you don’t mind me writing these notes. I’m like, no, no, I really love that. I better 

Lady Petra: [01:25:57] not forget to note. 

SafferMaster: [01:25:59] Right. And I look forward to them. Like I 

Lady Petra: [01:26:02] actually, one time you said, I didn’t get a note, this party.

Cause I put it in my pocket while I was working, like getting things ready for the day. And I left with a note, 

SafferMaster: [01:26:10] Oh yeah, where’s my notes. Like this is a breakdown. And like it’s such a. Loving thing to do for somebody to write them a little love every day, right? It’s such 

Lady Petra: [01:26:26] a loving thing to do documents where we are in our dynamic on any given day.

Cause they’re, cause they’re referenced differently. I basically am writing these at four 35 in the morning and I’m this is, this is starting my day too. I’m going off to work, but this is starting my day. Where am I at in our dynamics? So it could be very BDSM, sexual oriented, or it could be very loving.

It could be very profound in just the caring of one another, wherever it is, it just comes out and that sets. His creation and my creation for the day. So there’ve 

SafferMaster: [01:27:02] been times even recently where she’s written a note that has caused me to create a whole sexual scene for the day out of that note and see that wouldn’t have happened in my previous life.

It would never have happened. It was never gonna happen. So I was such an example of. Just like one little thing that she has done very consistently that just creates me like newly every day. And so I get to be this very like deeply satisfied, deeply joyful, deeply happy, dominant in a space with a very satisfied, deeply happy, deeply sexual, deeply motivated, deeply joyful submissive that that’s that’s my life.

Right. And it’s completely outside of anything. I could have contemplated 

Lady Petra: [01:27:57] or dreamed a dream. 

SafferMaster: [01:28:00] I had a construct when I wrote that seeking post had a construct that, you know, because it hadn’t experienced with a submissive where there was just a little bit of this present. And I wrote, you know, if I just had somebody who was.

This way sexually with me, sex forward can forward creative, um, partner, partner into drinks, into travel into food. And we could just kind of be healthy together and like explore together. And I just kind of wrote that seeking post. I had this idea that if somebody was with me, who was as sexualized as Iowa in the same way as I am, but on the opposite side so that we complemented each other, our life would be incredible.

And guess what? It’s incredible. 

Lady Petra: [01:28:51] It is 

Mike: [01:28:51] incredible. Amazing. Yeah. Oh gosh. So I could probably keep this going for another four hours. 

SafferMaster: [01:29:04] Um, 

Mike: [01:29:05] I know, I know. Um,

So there’s some things that you guys do that, uh, you want to talk about, but I just want to, like, 

SafferMaster: [01:29:18] I don’t know 

Mike: [01:29:19] a lot of this is available on Google and this is, um, I don’t know. It’s, it’s really amazing to hear how you, how you two interact with each other, how you interact with the relationship, how you’ve grown together.

It’s, it’s really amazing. And I think at one time staffer for you said the, you know, the key community is great and the people are great. And this is a great example of it because you have the trust. You have to have to have this kink relationship to have this power exchange relationship is something that’s very rare.

So I love it. And I appreciate it. Um, I did want to give you two, a chance to talk. I know you do, you do some coaching and of course you have your podcast. So I want to give you a minute to kinda, kinda hit on that. If you want 

SafferMaster: [01:30:09] anything else. Well, let’s talk about the podcast first. So the podcast, it’s the kick, your cocktail hour.

It’s on every single podcast directory and it’s something we were doing every day during COVID during COVID, but as lady Petro went back to the office, but she wasn’t working remotely. We started to do it three or four times a week. And, and what it really is. So, so lady Petra is a Somalia and she’s exploring the world of cocktail.


She, so she creates a new cocktail almost every day. Now, some days we have something we’ve before, but we’ve now done on the podcast over 300 podcasts, over 300 cocktails. They’re all individually. And for every hundred episodes we do. So we rate every part, every cocktail we read on a one to five scale.

And when we have a five out of five, like she writes at a five and I rated it a five. We actually have at the end of the a hundred podcasts, we go back and we revisit those five out of five and we have a taste of drink off, which is the best cocktail of the last hundred episodes, 

Lady Petra: [01:31:22] a terrible drunk Fest.

Mike: [01:31:26] Oh my 

SafferMaster: [01:31:27] God. My day three. We’re fucked up. You’ll get me, 

Lady Petra: [01:31:30] hear me. I think in the last one I was so screwed up. I was slurring like all the time I got my, 

SafferMaster: [01:31:36] it is, but anyway, so we’ve now identified three cocktails that are just completely out of this world. And if you’re interested, you’ve got to go to, um, lady, lady Petra, or just lady Petro playground.

Lady Petra: [01:31:53] Yeah. Or actually, if you go to lady pitch,, my website, you’ll find all the cocktails 

SafferMaster: [01:31:58] there to have the list of the best cocktails and all of that. So, so we’ve been exploring cocktails. That’s the one aspect of my journey. And then the other aspect of my journey is to either interact with each other about our open sexuality or to interact with Kingston about their open sexuality.

And so we’ve explored. We have, like I said, like 340 episodes right now of conversations around sex, kink dynamics, relationship, all at all, we have authors and poets. Then we started doing kid movie reviews. We’re reviewing our second book. We reviewed Gordon chapter by chapter. Now we’re reviewing edge play by Jane Byrne, captain by chapter chapters, 15.

We’ve done movie reviews. We’ve got our next podcast coming out in the next week or so we reviewed the movie cruising. That’s a 

Lady Petra: [01:32:49] good one. We’re surprised by that one. 

SafferMaster: [01:32:52] Anyway. So, you know, the point is the podcast is really a conversation. We call it an adult conversation. We’re having friend communication about sexuality and kink.

That’s what the podcast is all about. And it’s, it’s available all the time. The more important thing though is our coach. So lady Petra playground offers three coaching, actually paradigm coaching paradigms. So let’s talk about the three that go together. So the first one is just a daily self discovery.

So it’s called it’s called task a day. And you basically get an email or a, or a, um, a note that gives you a task to do. And it’s either a do read or write kind of thing, and you explore your own. So it’s about self discovery. That’s the point of the coaching? For example, 

Lady Petra: [01:33:45] if there’s a do, uh, whatever the do task would be, maybe it means put clothes, pins on your nipples and sit, and I do pose with rice under your knees or something like that for 20 minutes, let’s just say, and someone physically couldn’t do it and they may have to adapt it or they didn’t want to do it, whatever.

Right. It doesn’t matter. There’s no wrong. What it means is then you get to write and reflect on whether you did it or not. Did it. And what were the motivations behind that? Because that’s an inquiry into yourself because this coaching is for dominant or submissive. Yeah. 

SafferMaster: [01:34:23] The point is for you to engage in an ongoing deep self-discovery.

So that at the end of it, you can actually say who you actually 

Lady Petra: [01:34:32] authentically are. Cause we help you build your. FetLife profile at the end, in the sense of being authentic, because lots of people build profiles and put a million things on there. And it’s really not really who they are. 

SafferMaster: [01:34:44] That’s the point.

The point is that you can’t really get what you want. If you don’t know who you are. So the first step is to discover who you are. So the second part of that coaching paradigm, we call group coaching and that involves at least five people on a weekly telephone conversation with the coach. And you get to explore 12 different dynamics that relate to, again, deeper self discovery, more interactive than the initial task a day, but it’s really, it really begins to move you into action.

Lady Petra: [01:35:20] That’s the point. And the big thing with that group coaching is a lot of times while you’re in discussion, you as the person trying to get, have discovery, can’t always see or hear. Your true self, because you have your own filters, but others, and this is common. We often say. Well, John doesn’t know he’s an asshole, but all of us know he’s an asshole or what, and I’m just using an example.

SafferMaster: [01:35:48] He goes, the kid goes to his mom, Hey mom, I’m gay. And the mom goes, yeah, I know that you can’t see it for yourself. Right. And so that’s what that’s about. And then the third part of that coaching is, is one-on-one individual coaching, personal weekly conversation with a coach. And again, the whole point of that is to move you into action to actually find your ideal partner.

Lady Petra: [01:36:11] Yeah. That one is very personalized. We. You know, vet people through that process to find out what they’re actually seeking. And then we designed the program specifically for what they’re seeking and that also can involve face-to-face interactions and meetings and development with the person. Yeah. 

SafferMaster: [01:36:28] So that’s that paradigm.

The other paradigm that we have is what we call daily dominance. And that’s basically task a day, but from a submissive perspective, now this is where you are engaging lady Petra in a daily dominance task. So the first, the first one, the daily dominance task and the task a day that’s 90 days. And then the, the coaching group coaching is 90 days.

And then the individual coaching is at least 90 days could go longer. So that’s, so those are the, those are the paradigms of coaching we offer. And again, none of this is like tips and tricks. That’s all about software.

Mike: [01:37:07] So it’s more about. Finding what you are through it, as opposed to you telling someone how to 

SafferMaster: [01:37:15] be, right. We’re not interested in telling you anything. We’re going to ask you questions that force you to engage our own experience of your own life. To answer the question for yourself, because let me put it this way, Mike, if you, if you, um, well, let me ask you this.

Do you know how to ride a bicycle? I do. Yeah. And how old were you when you learned how to ride a bicycle?

Mike: [01:37:45] Somewhere 

SafferMaster: [01:37:46] between five and seven. Okay. Got it. Okay. When was the last time you rode a bicycle? It’s been a couple of years. All right. If I gave you a bicycle right now, could you ride it? Yeah. Right. And why, why is that? Why, why is it that you learned something at five or six that you can still do today?

Like what did you learn at five or six that lets you ride a bicycle today? Um, 

Mike: [01:38:09] is that muscle memory and that confidence in the fact 

SafferMaster: [01:38:12] that you can do it well, you actually learn balance. Okay. Yeah. And so you discovered balance and you can’t, undiscover it? Cause you’ve discovered you’ve seen it, you’ve seen it.

Right. And so that’s what this coaching is about. The coaching is about you seeing yourself for yourself for that. Not because 

Lady Petra: [01:38:34] someone tells you something or someone massages a comment into you to say, this is what you should be. It’s really you saying this, that and the other. I, I had a submissive, she started as a submissive in our coaching and by the end of the coaching, she fully understood.

She was a dominant. But she was seeking out dominance as a submissive. And as soon as she found out she was a dominant, she all of a sudden had three or four subs underneath her and was happy as a cow, you know, just because she discovered who she was, what she wanted, not what she thought people thought she should be or what she thought she was supposed to be.

SafferMaster: [01:39:19] Right. So that’s, that’s the point in the coaching is to give you access to yourself. Yeah. Makes total sense. 

Mike: [01:39:28] Very cool. And able to get that on, on your lady. Pinterest 

SafferMaster: [01:39:33] site. Yeah. You can access it through lady Petrel playground, or we have a Patrion, which you’ll share that, let you get right there. But basically it’s pretty, we made it very affordable.

It’s not very expensive, but the idea is to give people access to it. 

Mike: [01:39:49] That’s cool. That’s, that’s really amazing because yeah. I mean, you’re sharing your journey basically. 

SafferMaster: [01:39:55] Not quite putting it in a bottle, but right. 

Lady Petra: [01:39:59] But when we wrote this, it was a brainstorming session about our journey progression and what we thought was important in when we were even seeking each other before we met each other, the process of what we were seeking and how do we put that into effect in the training so that people can go through some of the things we did before we even started seeking each other, doing some of that work first before the training progress is to the point by the end where you’ve written your profile and now you’re, you’re seeking your, your one or many whoever that is.

Yeah. And, 

SafferMaster: [01:40:36] and, you know, again, like the whole intention is to put people in action to actually find the person. Who brings to their life, the joy that like lady Petros brought to my life, for example, right. It’s not about, like, if you do this, you’re going to be like so happy. It’s more about knowing what to do, put you in a place where you can actually create the kind of incredible experience for having in relationship.


Mike: [01:41:08] Very awesome.

Lady Petra: [01:41:13] You can see the wheels 

Mike: [01:41:14] spinning. The wheels are spinning. There’s a whole lot here. I, um, I, uh, I. Thank you. That’s about,

um, yeah, we can have this conversation again later, for sure. Keep it going. Um, is there, is there anything else though, that you did want to share or anything else you’d need to put out there or anything? 

SafferMaster: [01:41:43] Well, I would say this, I would say that for people listening, who are unfulfilled in their life, they just need to know that that’s not the end of the conversation.

There’s another conversation to have that gives you freedom and power and full self-expression. And when you have freedom and power and full self expression, life occurs quite remarkably differently. Hmm. 

Lady Petra: [01:42:12] Yeah, I agree. 

SafferMaster: [01:42:15] Yeah, 

Mike: [01:42:17] it’s important. Cool. Well, thank you both very much. I, I, I 

SafferMaster: [01:42:22] appreciate it. Yeah, you’re welcome.

Yeah, absolutely. 

 Mike: [01:42:33] Thanks for joining us today, if you haven’t yet be sure to subscribe, so you don’t miss all the great conversations I’m having. You can listen or subscribe on the website on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, the iHeart Radio app, or your favorite podcast place. Be sure to leave us a review and maybe share the podcast with a friend or a couple of hundred. 

The Human Tapestry podcast is all about starting a conversation. So get in touch with me. You can contact me at the website, on Twitter at @HumanTapestry, or on Tumblr at humantapestrypodcast. We’ll talk again next time.

SafferMaster and Lady Petra

This week, I’m talking with SafferMaster and Lady Petra, a cisgender, straight, and very kinky couple who live in a full-time power exchange relationship, and hosts of the Kinky Cocktail Hour podcast. SafferMaster is a sensual sadist and Lady Petra is a masochist. In their relationship SafferMaster is the dominant while Lady Petra is submissive, but Lady Petra is only submissive to SafferMaster, and it also a domme to other men. We had a great conversation talking about their incredibly connected relationship, how they found each other after leaving long, unhappy marriages, their current sex and kink forward relationship, the difference between a slave and a submissive, and many other topics. If you want to hear more from them, be sure to check out their Kinky Cocktail Hour podcast or any of their other sites linked below.

Continue reading “SafferMaster and Lady Petra”

Kristina Brooke Daniele

Today, I’m talking with Kristina, a queer, black, sexual assault survivor who’s been married to a straight, white man for 17 years. We had a great conversation about growing up in a Christian, black, heterosexual family, how her possibly-gay pastor’s death from AIDs led to her understanding her own sexuality, living in a mixed-race, mixed-orientation marriage, understanding her nonbinary child when they came out to her, and many other great topics!

Note: I had some microphone issues and so fade out a few times during our conversation. Hopefully, it’s not too distracting.

Continue reading “Kristina Brooke Daniele”

Mark, Four Years Later

Today, I’m talking with Mark, another person I talked to about four years ago during my Intersections project. If you haven’t heard that interview yet, you can hear it in last week’s From the Vault episode, along with Leandra Vane. Mark is a gay, married man and I had a great conversation with him as we caught up on his life since we last talked, growth in his marriage, unique struggles of non cishet marriages, puppies, and lots of other things.

Continue reading “Mark, Four Years Later”


This week, I’m talking with Amanda VanderBroek, who I interviewed about four years ago under her pen name: Leandra Vane. She’s a kinky, poly, sexually fluid woman, and we had a great conversation talking about all that’s changed over the last four years, including being outed and having to fight for the validity of her identity, facing gatekeepers within the queer and erotic writing communities, living as a bisexual, kinky person in the rural Midwest, how writing about monsters and zombies can help reveal things about the treatment of sexual and racial minorities, and a lot of other things.

Continue reading “Amanda”

From the Vault: Leandra and Mark

You may have noticed a shift in the music. Since I’ve moved editing platforms, I didn’t want to take the music from the creators on my old platform, so I found this nice song: Innovation by Jon Sib. I know it’s just for the background, but I hope you like it.

I’ve been fortunate to have a few guests back who were on my Intersections YouTube project a few years ago, including Leandra Vane and Mark. Before I share their interviews, I’m sharing those original interviews, so you can get to know them.

Continue reading “From the Vault: Leandra and Mark”


If you’ve listened to this podcast for a little while, it may end up looking and sounding a little different, because I’m trying a new editing platform that allows for something I’ve wanted to set up for a while: transcripts! The edits may be a little off as I adapt, but if this works out, it may be good in the long run. Of course, because this is a real, human conversation, and real humans don’t always have conversations in structured, proper syntax, the transcript reads a little off at times. I thought it was important to capture the real conversation, though, for people who work with transcripts to have their best podcasting experience. Of course, I’m evolving as a podcaster just as I’m evolving as a human, so if anyone who relies on these has any feedback, please let me know!

This week, I’m talking with Max, a friend who currently identifies as a transgender expansive, genderfluid, asexual, aromantic, mad poly queer, demisexual gender traveler who enjoys rope play, daddy boy play, impact play, edging, and other play of various kinds. We had a great conversation talking about their constantly evolving identity, how important their life as a young girl is to their identity, working in the mental health industry, navigating therapy, the “time travel mechanism” of ADHD, how language affects us, and so much more.

Enjoy the conversation!

Episode Transcript


[00:00:15]Mike: If you’ve listened to this podcast for a little while. It may end up looking and sounding a little different because I’m trying a new editing platform that allows for something I wanted to set up for a while: transcripts! The edits may be a little off as I adapt, but if this works out, it may be good in the long run. And of course, because this is a real human conversation, and real humans don’t always have conversations in structured, proper syntax transcript reads a little off at times. 

[00:00:42] I thought it was important, though, to capture the real conversation for people who work with transcripts to have their best podcasting experience. Now, of course I’m evolving as a podcast or just as I’m evolving as a human, so if anyone who relies on these as any feedback, please let me know. Now, this week, I’m talking with Max, [00:01:00] a friend who currently identifies as a transgender expansive, gender fluid, 

[00:01:04] asexual, aromantic, mad poly queer, demisexual gender traveler who enjoys rope play, daddy boy play, impact play, edging and other play of various kinds. We had a great conversation talking about their constantly evolving identity, how important their life as a young girl is to their identity. Working in the mental health industry, navigating therapy, 

[00:01:28] the time travel mechanism of ADHD, how language affects us and so much more. So let’s get to the conversation.   


[00:01:36]Max, Max, you and I go back a ways actually to,

[00:01:52] I don’t know, it’s been a few years. We first met in your skate shop in Columbus, so, 

[00:02:00] [00:02:00] Max: and then that’s like five it’s like what? Five years? Probably. 

[00:02:05] Mike: At least five or six back. Yeah. So it’s been a little bit and, and it’s been really neat because I’ve gotten to watch you change and evolve into yourself since I’ve gotten to know you.

[00:02:19] Um, and I know like you still filled out my little form and you’ve got on your identities. Let me go through them. This list here, transgender expansive, asexual, aromantic. Uh, enjoy rope play daddy boy play as a bottom or a sub, impact play, edging, long, drawn out sexy sensory play of various kinds, mad poly queer, demisexual, gender traveler, trans person with interests in rope play, impact play, and age play.

[00:02:58] Max: Yeah, actually I think I filled that out [00:03:00] twice, so yeah, 

[00:03:01] Mike: there’s a little overlap, but 

[00:03:02] Max: then also, I don’t know. My identity is changed every day, kind of, not always, but I feel like at different times in different days I feel that’s the whole sort of gender travel thing for me is like, I feel like a lot of people use like gender fluid to describe that.

[00:03:20] But for me, I’m like, it feels more like a journey than anything. It feels like a journey from day to day than anything. I mean, fluidity is one thing, but for me, it, it still feels like I’m sort of on this. Yeah, journey to sort of exploring all of the different facets of like my own gender. And it also does change day to day and sodas, like the things I’m interested in, um, you know, sexually and otherwise.

[00:03:49] Yeah, yeah. 

[00:03:53] Mike: Hmm. No, I was going to ask you about the gender traveler. I like that. So, 

[00:03:59] Max: yeah, I mean, and [00:04:00] I think, you know, in terms of like the trans identity, it’s interesting because now it is, there seems to be a distinction between like trans and non-binary, um, like a lot of times people will say trans and non-binary people trying to sort of include the two.

[00:04:17] Whereas for me, I’ve always seen my non binary identity as a transgender identity. If that makes sense. Um, but I’m, I’m noticing and seeing that as language evolves and as the communities evolve, those things are not always the same, um, or not always described as the same, but for me, they very much are.

[00:04:37] And I think a lot of times, like, especially in the last like two years, and especially in New York city, I’ve noticed that like, when I say like, Oh, I’m non-binary or when I say I use, they, them pronouns people will mis-gender me as he/ him, which makes sense. That’s how I appear. I think in many ways, like I can pass quote unquote [00:05:00] pass.

[00:05:00] Right. Um, but I had an interesting conversation with a trans woman at work, um, when I was interning and as a mental health counselor, and she was like,  I think we were talking about like, like bottom surgery or something. And she was like, she was like, Oh, and she’s like, Oh, I like fully thought that you were like assigned male at birth and just like use they them pronouns.

[00:05:25] And so, and I realized actually how much that bothered me, um, and how much my like, assigned like my history of like being assigned female at birth. And my history actually of like growing up as a young girl, like matters to me and how like, you know, my, my trans identity is not limited to, like, I’ve always been trans, I’ve always been non binary.

[00:05:52] I’ve always been a trans man. You know, like I think some people sort of retroactively applied the identity to [00:06:00] themselves and they’re like, well, really I was like a young trans person and like, I was a young trans person, but I was also for all intents and purposes, like the young girl. And even though, as I grew, it didn’t fit.

[00:06:11] There was a time in my life when it didn’t matter as much, you know, but then like puberty happened and then it did start to matter to me. And I think like, it’s not that I haven’t always been a trans person, but it’s just that I didn’t, it’s just that my, yeah, my experience as like a young girl matters a lot to me.

[00:06:28] And so I have been trying to find ways to use and find a language to be able to like, explain that to people. When I explain my identity, instead of just saying like I’m non binary and I use like, they them pronouns or like I’m gender fluid and I use they them pronouns. Um, cause I want to be able to say like, I’m a fab transgender and I’m binary and I use they them pronouns.

[00:06:51] But you know, when you’re new to doing like a quick intro, it can be difficult. And then also at that can, I don’t know, you know, it’s kind of hyper-specific, [00:07:00] but those, all of those things make me who I am and inform my experiences with like how I see the world. And I think, yeah, I think it can be like easy.

[00:07:11] I think there are. And like when, and I think, and I know that even in the trans community, this is something that is highly contested at different times, but like, I do think there are differences between people who are socialized as young women and people who are socialized as young men, even if you’re, even if both of those people are trans as children, you know, like I know that like there are differences in how you’re socialized and, and, and I know that that is something, and I’m happy to talk to people more about that.

[00:07:38] Cause I know that different people have different ideas about what it means to be like socialized quote unquote, you know, and, and not everyone agrees with what I’m saying right now in the trans community. But I do feel like there are differences, you know, and like the way that I was treated as like a young girl growing up would have been different than like how I was treated.

[00:07:55] Like if I was a young boy growing up. By like my peers, you know, [00:08:00] by the people who bullied me by my brother, by my family, like all of those things would’ve been different. And they, those things did make me who I was, especially when it comes to some of my like complex trauma experiences, you know? So it’s, yeah.

[00:08:15] That’s the long answer of my like gender idea. Oh 

[00:08:18] Mike: no, that’s cool. Cause I’ve, I’ve seen that too. And like, I remember the first time someone said something like, well non-binary is not trans. And I was like, what? Because yeah. And it’s just, I guess it’s an evolving description, but, you know yeah. And I mean, yeah, we’re all socialized into, unless you happen to live in a society that has some kind of perfect, figured out,

[00:08:48] gender identity. We’ve all been socialized, not only in the in our own assigned sex, but in what the other genders [00:09:00] are like, you, you know, I grew up with a man, is this, a woman is this, a trans person is this, you know? And, uh, okay. It’s cool though. I mean, I thought your description was pretty, pretty good of who you are, but, uh, I guess it takes a minute to, to get through that.

[00:09:21]Yeah, I think it’s really cool that you’re able to kind of, not necessarily like, cause I, I know like some of your story from growing up and stuff from some of the trauma you had and some of the difficulties you had before, you really understood your identity, but yeah.

[00:09:38] Sounds like you’re still holding onto some of those things that are like, they’re, they’re part of who you are. You can still, you can still be that person who was a girl and, and that’s okay, because that’s who you were and who you, you know, that was your identity at the time. And that was a valuable part of your, your [00:10:00] experience.

[00:10:02] Max: Yeah, definitely. You know, and I think, especially when we’re talking like complex trauma or more specifically like developmental trauma, right? Like the ways that developmental trauma actually does impact and affect the brain and the way that the brain develops, you know, it’s like some of these things were happening when my brain was still developing.

[00:10:19] And when I was, again, for all intents and purposes, like very much seen as like a young girl, um, in the world. And just what you’re saying it is, it’s like, I think some of those things happened to me. Some of the things were done. To me, or I was treated a specific way because I was that thing, like, for instance, like when I developed anorexia, when I was 13 and it was pretty life-threatening, you know, um, that was something that, because I was like a young girl to everyone around me.

[00:10:54] Right. Um, I was, that was treated at a very specific [00:11:00] way. And

[00:11:07] I could have, we Brently or maybe would have been diagnosed differently if I was not as like a young girl. 

[00:11:16] Mike: Hmm.

[00:11:22] Because they just tend to, well, I know, like they talk about mental health a lot of times in sex. Like you’re like girls have ADHD differently than boys have ADHD, those kinds of things. Right.

[00:11:52] Max: wasn’t until I was an adult that I got like a more comprehensive, like ADHD [00:12:00] diagnosis. Um, and we started talking about, and considering like, could I be on the spectrum? You know? And that was something that just was really completely overlooked when I was younger. And there’s always, especially with anorexia, there’s kind of this specific profile that people that when I say, I guess not people, but like mental health clinicians, think of when they think young girl with anorexia, right.

[00:12:22] They’re like perfectionism anxiety, most, most, you know, like there’s specific things that they’re sort of looking for that. Automatically sort of sets you up to be in this position to be diagnosed in a specific way, especially if you present in with any of those symptoms right there. They’re sort of like, like, I think a lot of times, at least what I’ve experienced in the mental health field, both as a consumer and as a clinician now is like a lot it’s, it’s just so muddy.

[00:12:54] Like the, as we were sort of saying earlier, before we started recording, like there’s so much overlap between symptoms and what [00:13:00] happens is a lot of, first of all, a lot of times when you’re seen and that you have to get a diagnosis right away so that insurance can be billed. So they take whatever symptoms they’re seeing.

[00:13:13] And diagnose based on that without getting a full, complete picture of what’s actually going on. And if it’s someone who’s always diagnosing the same three things, because they work at an eating disorder center or something, right. They’re going to look for those symptoms of that, those three things. And that’s probably the diagnosis that you’re going to get, even if it’s more complicated than that, even if some of those symptoms.

[00:13:34] These are coming from something else. Right. Right. And what we found over time is like my, a lot of my anxiety symptoms and even my eating disorder stuff was really stemming from like the discomfort that I felt socially. Um, the struggles that I had to like connect to the kids around me, um, how uncomfortable I felt in my own skin.

[00:13:54] Right. Like really, like, it was like puberty hit. And I was like, Oh my God, I’m not turning into my brother. [00:14:00] I’m turning into something else. You know, like this is a weird, um, you know, I’m feeling really uncomfortable with that. And part of like the trauma that I was experiencing of just like living in a household that wasn’t taking into account, like.

[00:14:14] My sensitivity, my sensory needs the different things that I, that I needed, you know, uh, emotionally. Um, and so definitely there was a certain element of like, this is a way that I can have something that’s all mine. This is a control thing, right. This is a perfectionism thing, but there was more to it than that, but that was never explored because I, that was not the typical profile of the people who were be true, who were being treated at that, that specific center.

[00:14:38] Right. So that’s the thing that gets so tricky about mental health care in the first place is that there’s like this. I can’t think of the word for it. I know there’s a word for it, but it’s like, it’s like kind of like confirmation bias, right? Like it’s like, Oh, I would expect this person to present with these things when, if it’s this specific thing.

[00:14:58] Right. And then that person presents with [00:15:00] some of those things. And so the clinician is just like, Oh, this is definitely what they have. But then what happens is you stop asking questions about other areas. And that’s a big thing that I see a lot of clinicians doing is they’re not exp. And if you’re not asking your clients.

[00:15:14] Questions specific to certain things. They might not ever bring it up on their own. You know? So like for instance, trauma, like trauma stuff, like PTSD is overlooked a lot in treatment because first of all, it’s dif difficult to build rapport with clients, especially if you’re in a community setting where there’s high turnover of clinicians or clients, aren’t seeing people for a long time are not coming consistently.

[00:15:37] So it’s hard to build a good relationship. So you can’t really ask about that stuff because you don’t have a strong relationship and to ask about it when you don’t have a strong relationship could actually hurt the relationship. And then the client might not come or they might not feel comfortable.

[00:15:49] But then at the same time, it’s like, if you’re not asking about it, you might not ever know, you know, on some level or if you don’t know how to ask the right questions.  So that’s, that’s, that’s the [00:16:00] long answer, I guess, in some ways for me, right. Is it’s like, it’s just really complicated and it’s more complicated than I think our mental health system wants to believe that it is, and more complicated than most clinicians believe that it can be . 

[00:16:15] Mike: Yeah. You know, it’s funny, a lot of things in life in general, I’ve over the last several years, I’ve started just saying it’s more complicated than that. And. Like it’s, it’s so many things that we just try to put it in a light like that. Let’s, let’s put our mental health diagnosis into this neat little box.

[00:16:34] Let’s put her gender into this neat little box. Let’s put our, you know, whatever it is. Let’s put our politics into this neat little box. It’s like, it’s not, it’s just, we’re not there. That’s simple. And you would think in a field where they study the human brain, which is one of the most complex things on earth.

[00:16:57] Um, [00:17:00] I mean, it’s, it’s odd to me that, that a field that’s that involved in that would be that. I mean, I get it. I guess you get into everyone gets into, you know, we, we like to put things into boxes to be able to process information, but yeah. Um, it’s interesting to me. , 

[00:17:18] Max: I mean it is, you know, it is super complicated. And I think like, especially back in the time when I was initially hospitalized, you know, that was like early two thousands. And even though. It’s funny, right. Again, it is more complicated because like we are, I think advancing.

[00:17:35] Yeah. Especially right now, the field of mental health care at a really quick pace. Um, but it’s just, you know, it’s that doesn’t negate all of the history of damage that has been done within the mental health care field. And I think that a lot of people don’t want to look the other way. You know, even when I was in classes for training, [00:18:00] for being a mental health clinician, there’s just no context.

[00:18:03] There’s no groundwork laid there’s no. So I’ve, I’ve done training for both mental health counseling and peer support. For instance, in one of the first classes you can do for your peer support training, at least in New York state talks about literally that history of peer support and the history of psychiatry and psychology.

[00:18:23] And what they talk about is like, here are all of the ways that like a lot of the stuff is tied to eugenics. Here are the ways that like, people were really poorly treated in like mental health asylums, quote, unquote, you know, like, like asylums that people have, like that were basically just like, it was just like another carceral system, you know, for mentally ill people.

[00:18:45] And not even sometimes like there, there are these two specific stuff I know of, of women who just like wanted to divorce their husbands and their husbands were like, no, you’re insane. And I’m going to like take you to this asylum. And then those women lived out like the rest of their lives. And those asylums, even though [00:19:00] there was like, Essentially nothing going on for them other than like, they just didn’t want to be with her husband, you know, but it was like, they were a woman until like the husband had ultimate say and could be like, this is what happens.

[00:19:11] Right. And like queer people that were put there because, you know, and then like essentially forcibly sterilized, because like, They weren’t allowed to reproduce or people. The big thing is like, quote unquote. Feeblemindedness right. So there was a whole time when it was like, Oh, people, people who are feeble-minded get put in here and then like, we don’t want you to reproduce because we don’t want you to like, create more people like you, that we’re going to have to then put into this system again.

[00:19:33] Right. So like that’s taught in peer support, but in the mental health counseling field, they’re like, Freud was like, great. And like, here’s all these other clinicians that are like, great. And like here’s all these ways that we think about and conceptualize, like diagnosing people without giving you like, and like, some of that is true, right?

[00:19:49] Like there are many people that over time have informed the way that we understand mental health. And that’s like really great, but there’s no context for like, where did this all come from? And how is it all still perpetuated today? And the [00:20:00] systems that we actually work in with our clients, you know, and like even the fact that most clinicians use the word patient, but like, we are not doctors.

[00:20:08] We are not doctors. We do not have patients. We have clients who have agency. Who come to see us who like we need to be collaborating with, but I think it’s really easy for people to be like, well, you can, you can diagnose something from the DSM. So this is your patient. And you’re going to like, quote unquote, cure them.

[00:20:26] But that’s just not how mental health works. Like I’ve I hate the word patient. I will never call. First of all, I don’t want to be called a patient by my mental health clinician. And second of all, I’m never going to call anyone that I work with my patient because I’m not a doctor and mental health extends beyond biological circumstances.

[00:20:42] Like mental health is impacted by so many things. And it isn’t just, I think it’s, I think like, There is this like bio psychological model that we can lean on around this idea of like, you know, what I was taught growing up is like, it’s just a chemical imbalance in your brain and that’s why you’re depressed.

[00:20:56] And I’m like, no, I’m depressed because this world is a terrible place [00:21:00] and it’s not built for me. And the people around me don’t understand me and I don’t understand myself. And so I don’t have a good sense of self. And so, yeah, I’m depressed, but like, and maybe that over time has created a chemical imbalance in my brain, but there are so many other things that also impact me that caused me to feel this way in the world.

[00:21:18] And if we just say it’s a chemical imbalance in my brain where essentially stripping me of all of my agency and personhood to decide what’s best for me, because that’s essentially saying I don’t have control over my own biology. And therefore I don’t have control over my own emotions and feelings, right.

[00:21:34] Or this idea then that I can be cured. But the truth is that like, I’ve been going to therapy since I was 13 and I’ve never once been cured. 

[00:21:41] Mike: Yeah, no, you know, I think it’s so funny. Cause it’s like, If cause if you start saying I’m going to cure whatever is in the quote, chemical imbalance in your brain, what are you curing? Because a lot of times it’s just a diversity.

[00:21:58] It’s a neurodivergent [00:22:00] thing. It’s, I’m like I’ve got dia-, I’m diagnosed with ADHD and it’s not, I actually hate the second D of that because to me, actually, both of these, cause it’s not necessarily a deficit or a disorder, it’s a, just a different way. My brain processes information and the same thing. Yes, my psychiatrist, I’m his patient.

[00:22:23] He’s the one that prescribes my medication to help with some of the chemical processes that are out of balance brain. But the day I got the diagnosis, the, the, the woman who diagnosed me, the first thing she said to me after was, okay, you have this, you now have the medication to help your brain function.

[00:22:42] In a more positive way now you have to change the way you operate and the habits that you’ve developed over 40, some odd years of living with it and compensating that now you need to also make those changes. And that’s not something you can get in a pill or, or a [00:23:00] cure or even, and there’s some aspects of it that I don’t want to change or lose.

[00:23:04] So 

[00:23:06] Max: yeah, exactly. You know, and that’s the same thing, like over in the UK now they started saying autism spectrum condition. Because again, it’s like, are we really going to call autism like a disorder or are we going to just, you know, are we gonna encompass it in all that we know human diversity to be, which is incredibly broad ranges of difference.

[00:23:24] Right. And so I think similarly, I would like to see that change when it comes to like this ADHD idea. And for me, like, I like to use the word time traveler instead of. ADHD. Oh, I love it. Cause I’m like, cause I’m just like, I don’t know. I don’t perceive time in any normative way at all whatsoever. You’re going to ask me how long it’s going to take me to do you do something and I’m going to tell you, and it’s going to be completely wrong because I just have no idea how time works.

[00:23:54] And also like maybe I saw you six months ago, but to me it feels like I saw you a week ago. And so it’s not a big deal that we didn’t see each other [00:24:00] for six months. But if you’re someone who works on a more normative timeline, it might feel like a long time for you and you might actually feel upset with me, but I didn’t reach out to you sooner.

[00:24:08] But to me, I can’t tell the difference, like literally at all. So like my best friendships are the ones where people just like, don’t get upset with me that like, I don’t talk. I’m not going to text someone every day. Like it’s just overwhelming phones have like, no for me, no real sense of, and computers either have like no real sense of organization that like works for me.

[00:24:29] So I get incredibly overwhelmed on technology. Or you have to pay for like getting applications or things you can use that help you organize. And like, I don’t have money. So like, I just, I like this idea of time travel because I’m just like, I don’t experience time in any really like, linear sense that seems to match up with like most of the people around me.

[00:24:49] But a lot of other people I know with ADHD, we just like all get it sorta like I do like, Oh yeah, I know time is not, first of all, not real. And second of all, like does not actually exist in a [00:25:00] linear way, but I feel it, like, I feel it in my body. Um, it’s not just a concept in my mind that I can sort of understand and think about it’s something that like I know inside of my body, like in a very embodied way.

[00:25:10] And I think that also extends to like my trauma, right. And like, part of that overlap for me is like the depersonalization derealization stuff that I experienced. And some of the like dissociation that I experienced that also causes time to feel just different, you know, but time traveler to me is like a much more fun way of explaining it and makes me feel more like.

[00:25:30] Empowered and like more like, you know, I don’t know, like, I don’t know, just less, like it’s a deficit less, like it’s something that is a disorder or something that like people are going to be poking and prodding at me about, you know, and being like, what’s wrong with you? You know, it’s like, no, I’m, I’m actually an advanced, uh,

[00:25:47]like sometimes my time travel mechanism breaks and then I, and then I like can’t finish things on time or like, or I just like, forget, like sometimes I’m just like, Oh, no, sorry. Like my, I just, I couldn’t get back at my, I [00:26:00] couldn’t get back in time to like, have this project done for you. Give me like another week.

[00:26:03] Sorry. 

[00:26:06] Mike: Oh my God. That’s amazing. I love it. Oh, that fits. 

[00:26:12] Max: Yeah. I’m really very interested in like, how do we reframe these things? You know? And if, if it’s in ways that are just like a little more fun, like whatever. Yeah. 

[00:26:21] Mike: That’s why I do like the, the neuro divergent. Term that’s being used now, because that, that kind of says, you know, okay, you’ve got neuro-typical, which is just what the majority of people operate under.

[00:26:36] And there’s those of us that our brains are just a little bit different and that’s diversion, but not D uh, uh, disability. It’s still a little bit off. Cause I don’t know if typical versus diversion is a great way of putting it, but it’s still better than just saying you have some kind of disorder. 

[00:27:00] [00:27:00] Max: Right.

[00:27:01] And some people use the terminology neuro emergent now as well. Right? Like there are different ways to that people are trying to reframe even that, that concept because it does, it creates this dichotomy right. Of like us versus them. Right. And it also this dichotomy that still can be very much seen as like.

[00:27:16] Different and normal. Right. And that’s, that’s always the problem, I think, in, in most situations where you are like, yeah, I mean, I don’t operate like the norm, you know? Um, but again, that has roots to in, in psychology, right? Like again, even like queer people and like some of the diagnoses that were put on queer people over time, the diagnoses that were put on people who are trans, right.

[00:27:38] Like quote unquote transvestic fetishism, right. Was like one of the DSM diagnoses for trans people. But really all it was doing is it was like relegating trans women to like this like sexual fetish rather than like self-knowing women that they are, you know, like it’s such a problem, but it’s just a way for people to be like, well, you’re different and you don’t operate like the rest of us.

[00:28:00] [00:27:59] And so here’s this way that we’re going to like categorize that. But it is, it’s very, it turns people into a monolith. And I think like, that’s just not how much like this conversation has gone. It’s just not how the world works. It’s like much more complicated than that. Um, And it’s like, okay, I don’t know, pathologize, like the normative, like neuro-typical people that just like, can’t seem to stop hoarding money, like percent.

[00:28:24] I’m like, what’s wrong with you that you can’t seem to stop like hoarding, like incredible amounts of wealth that like, who, how, how, how, like what, how, what, like, yeah. Like what is it about you that causes you to like, have to like, you know, and not to say that some of those people maybe don’t have certain mental illnesses or whatever, like maybe I’m also in this way treating them as a monolith too, but it’s just like, I think like a lot of the people that we see as like more normative or that operate in more normative ways, like they also have like their shit too is really all, but I’m saying, you know, and like, why isn’t that pathologize?

[00:28:57] Well, it’s not pathologize because they’ve been in positions of power over [00:29:00] time. They have been the ones that are the doctors who get to decide what are the diagnoses essentially. Um, yeah, so it’s, you know, it’s tricky. And I think that’s part of why I went into the mental health field to be like, you know, I’m.

[00:29:14] In some ways, how can I get into a position where I’m able to start having these conversations and making these changes more in favor of people who over time have been sort of stripped of their agency and their ability to identify without being pathologized? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that’s where, you know, Oh, sorry, go ahead.

[00:29:34] No, go, go, go please. Uh, I was just going to say, I think that’s where, you know, like for me, like I definitely identify as mad, right? Like as like, like I’m, I’m a big proponent of like the X patient mood and the mad, mad pride movement. And that for me has been really empowering. And that that’s, that was one of the identities that I have listed that you had mentioned earlier.

[00:29:54] Right? It’s what does it mean to just be mad in the world? 

[00:29:58] Mike: Say more about it? I [00:30:00] hadn’t heard of that as a thing. Like, I mean, I know what mad means. I know what pride means, but like as a movement, like. Yeah. 

[00:30:09] Max: Um, yeah, definitely. So it’s, I think it looks so interesting. And similarly to like some of the disability justice movements, it’s one of the ones that people are less familiar with.

[00:30:18] Right. Limit. Like even within BLM stuff that’s going on. It’s something that like a lot of people in some of my circles are like, yes, yes, yes. BLM great. Like, yes, yes, absolutely. And like, what are we doing to say like all black lives matter, meaning like disabled, black lives matter and like mentally ill black lives matter.

[00:30:37] Right. And like that conversation is a conversation that like white people can not,

[00:30:52] it is a conversation worth having. And so when we talk about the mad movement, when we talk about the X patient. [00:31:00] And survivor movement. Um, that started in like the seventies basically. And it was a time of folks who had been institutionalized to have been hospitalized, who had lived in asylums or, or, um, sort of the different types of hospitals that came afterwards and particularly queer white people where some of the people who were, who were sort of leading some of these movements and women, um, these were, this was a movement to say like, look like we need reform in the mental health world because what’s happening is people are not being treated well.

[00:31:35] People are being treated poorly. People are being institutionalized for long periods of time and their rights are being stripped away from them. People are being forcibly hospitalized, and then they’re not allowed to leave when they are hospitalized. They’re not allowed to access their community.

[00:31:50] They’re not allowed to access, um, the parts of their identity that would make them. Um, help essentially help them heal. Right. That would be, that would make them [00:32:00] feel more connected to themselves. Right. And what, what was being found and what is still the case, which was very much the case for me when I was 13, 14 was that these institutions are actually further traumatizing people.

[00:32:12] So you’re having people who are, who are traumatized by the world in various way. Um, or maybe who never had been traumatized before, but who are living in marginalized positions who then are institutionalized, but then are harmed by the quote unquote helpers. Right. And so what they were finding is like, you know what, like this actually isn’t helping at all.

[00:32:30] It’s making things worse that I’m being like forcibly put into the hospital. I’m being forcibly put on medication, which was the other really big piece. Like a lot of medication had been weaponized against people to make them compliant. So there’s a whole nother piece of like, are you a compliant patient or are you.

[00:32:46] A non-compliant patient. And if you’re a non-compliant patient that might get you a whole nother set of diagnoses, such as like oppositional defiant disorder or BPD, right? Like BPD is a big one that a lot of clinicians love to be like, well, that person’s difficult. They must [00:33:00] have BPD. And it’s like, no, that’s not how it works.

[00:33:02] You know? But again, it’s like, unless you’ve experienced some of these things, I think it’s just so hard to know and conceptualize. So the X patient survivor move, Penn survivor movement really came out of some, some reform stuff in the seventies and then onward. But all of this stuff had been happening all through the 17, 18 and early 19 hundreds, you know, over time.

[00:33:23] And there have been peer quote, unquote, peer support people and like ex patients mobilizing around a lot of these issues since the 18 hundreds there was, there was, um, yeah, there was like this whole like, like, like independent publication. And I forget I’m not going to remembering details, but I forget exactly where it came up, but it was just all like.

[00:33:46] Like Drake institution and they just made this public aid together and it lasted, I think for like 10 years and they just self published it. And it was just like about some of the stuff they experienced there. It was about their experiences as like mentally ill people. Um, I think one of the [00:34:00] people that led the paper was like schizophrenia, sick.

[00:34:02] Um, yeah, so this, I mean, it’s, it’s like a whole sort of thing, but I just don’t think that like people in dominant culture know much about it or hear much about it. Um, but now it’s sort of evolved and sort of merged with the disability justice movement and the transformative justice movement. Um, because more people are seeing psychiatric institutionalization as, as a carceral system, which oftentimes is and can be, um, or can lead to, um, imprisonment.

[00:34:28] And, and in fact, right, like I think many people have learned during this time that many, many people who have been shot and killed by police or just killed by police, um, Are actually also disabled, um, or have some sort of psychiatric disability going on. Right. And so these connections are starting to be made now, especially in light of some of the uprising stuff, the BLM movement, the more that people are going there.

[00:34:49] I think the more that people are starting to be like, yes, yes. Okay. Like we need to make these connections. We need to make them faster and we need to be mobilizing around it, um, in a more interdisciplinary way. Right? 

[00:35:00] [00:35:00] Mike: Yeah. Cause I mean, I heard someone say recently on a webinar, I was in that like, and you know, obviously right now racism is, is in the forefront of everyone’s mind because of what’s going on.

[00:35:16] And it’s very, you know, it’s, it’s a very racist thing, but they’re like, basically if you’re, when you’re addressing racism, if you’re not addressing LGBTQ issues, if you’re not addressing mental health issues, if you’re not, uh, Uh, addressing gender discrimination. You’re not going to deal with racism effectively because it’s all intersectional.

[00:35:37] And I don’t know what you just told me though. It feels like, um, a comparison to the first time I learned about Tulsa. Um, because what do you mean? This is part of our history that I just never knew about, you know, like, and it’s the same. I didn’t know that there was this much. I [00:36:00] knew that the mental health, I mean, I live in the town where one of the major mental health institutions was, um, you know, the, um, the ridges and I’ve been up to the graveyard up there and Sohn the unmarked graves.

[00:36:16] And eventually they put number, you know, they started with numbers and then eventually they put names and then put, you know, as, as healthcare, as mental health care evolved into. You know, something where they were put away versus they were treated like people, but I didn’t know that this went that far back.

[00:36:31] That is amazing. And like the intersection, like, you know, the, the intersections between mental health and you know, how people of color are, um, more or are worse in those institutions and probably sent to them more for not good reasons. And also the intersection with gender, like, um, I think I even sent you the text when I found out after, uh, uh, another interview.

[00:36:58] I did that, um, [00:37:00] people that identify, you know, people with trans identities are, I believe six times more likely to be diagnosed on the autism spectrum and the intersectionality of that, which almost kind of makes sense to me because you have a way of thinking differently about yourself in the world that you can actually recognize.

[00:37:24] The non-binary nature of sex and gender easier then. Yeah. You know, I mean, 

[00:37:31] Max: it’s, it’s like the fluid nature of existence and also, yeah. I mean, there’s so much to it, you know, and, and just to touch back to you on your point, like, you know, one big piece of this is that there were segregated wards and segregated buildings too, even within this complex.

[00:37:45] So there was a thing where yes, many black people were institutionalized and actually stayed separately than the white people in the institution and were treated poorly. Right. Just as poorly as if not worse. And of course, like fucking asshole, like [00:38:00] Cartwright, Samuel, a Cartwright or whatever. Not even probably worth mentioning his name, but he came up with like drape it to mania.

[00:38:06] And um, this other word that I can never actually say, but it’s like a dysesthesia, which is basically like, he was like, Oh, like enslaved people that are trying to run away. I’m going to diagnose them with drapetomania, which is like this desire to like, get away from like having to work or whatever, you know, and really it’s like, now these people are just trying to get away from these like horrid, horrid, horrid conditions that they’re being subjected to, like, which any probably like nor quote unquote normal person would want to do, you know?

[00:38:33] But it was something that was pathologized, you know? And then of course like, um, schizophrenia. Oh, there’s also like a whole there’s um, there’s a paper called, um, I think like how schizophrenia became. A black disease. I think that’s what it’s called. I can try to get it for you. It’s either a paper or a book or a paper that turned into a book, but it’s also about like how schizophrenia has been like weaponized against like black folks and other folks with color as well.

[00:38:57] Um, and that’s, you know, that’s, [00:39:00] that’s, that’s also a big part. Yeah. And the history, um, is the pathologizing of, of blackness as well as identity, certainly. Um, um, but yeah, to touch on your other point, honestly, like I think autistic people are like the smartest people on the planet. And, uh, I also think that, you know, when you sent me that text, I was like, yeah, actually, like, what I’ve heard is just that there are like that autistic people are more likely to identify as trans or non-binary.

[00:39:30] And that has certainly been my experience and yeah. A couple of years ago when I started thinking about it more and learning about it more, I was like, Oh, that’s what I want my dissertation to be on. If I ever go get a PhD, like I want to do a bunch of qualitative interviews or try to figure out a way to do multiple types of interviews.

[00:39:46] But I love qualitative research, um, to talk with people about how they experience gender or as, uh, um, someone on the spectrum of essentially. And it doesn’t necessarily mean that all of those people have to [00:40:00] identify as transgender that I interview. But I’m just curious, how do other autistic people experience gender?

[00:40:08] Because I have a strong feeling that my experience of my gender is very colored by my positionality on different. Aspects of the spectrum, if you will, if that’s what we’re going to keep calling it, the other piece is like common language, right? Like I just think like a lot of people, the way that I understand certain terminology is not the same way that a lot of other people in the world understand certain terminology.

[00:40:31] And so I think there needs to be a way for people to get more on the same page about like what these things mean. Um, and that’s also just a theme that I see in my life all the time with many things. Right. But especially

[00:40:48] no how as decarceration abolition, um, there’s a lot of language that I think is easy for people to think it means one thing, but really it means something else because of its historical [00:41:00] context. 

[00:41:00] Mike: Right? Yeah. Cause I mean, The evolution of little, like we said, the words, you know, trans and non-binary have changed in the last few years, the words like words, evil language evolves.

[00:41:15] Um, and I’m saying this is a reformed member of the grammar police. Um, you know, like, like I read a thing about in someone, it was a, it was someone who was a dictionary editor, like, you know, their job lexicographer. I believe that’s the way you say that their job was their, their, their career and life and expertise was words and what they mean and writing dictionary in the dictionary.

[00:41:44] And they were like, I like the invention of the dictionary changed the way language worked because the dictionary was supposed to be is, is, and it’s edited still as a descriptive. You know, [00:42:00] it’s, this is how the word is being used, but people have started now it’s shifted to now it’s being prescriptive.

[00:42:07] Like this is how you’re supposed to say it. Um, and it’s interesting, you know, our language has changed. The words that we use today are, you know, are nothing like the words we use a hundred years ago, you know, you know, so, or nowadays five years ago. But, um, yeah, it’s, it’s really interesting the way we, I, it goes back to, we just try to keep everything in.

[00:42:35] Nice, neat boxes, I guess, but yeah. No. 

[00:42:40] Max: Oh God. Yeah. I still struggle with the grammar policing only because, uh, an aspect of my personality is that I prefer hyper specificity when it comes to like, uh, certain things, you know? So when I’m like, and it’s not that I’m like, you’re using that word wrong. It’s that?

[00:42:56] I’m like, okay. But do you understand all of the context of that word? Let me, let [00:43:00] me fill you in on the context of that word. I’m like what you’re actually saying and why it’s loaded and like why it actually means like way more than what you think it means. And then people are like, max, please, please, please stop.

[00:43:09] Please stop, please. What’s true. But actually here, here’s all historical context. Let me tell you, let me tell you, 

[00:43:15] Mike: Oh man, I’ve had to deal with that in my own. Like in my job doing computer stuff, like the fact that this year. Is the first time I learned what the word grandfather clause meant. Oh man, I got to get rid of that out of my language.

[00:43:30] And in programming we use, um, you know, in version control, you always have the, the master branch and slave branches. And we’re like, yeah. And we’re actually like, there’s a move in, in, uh, to all credit to the, the website, get hub. They have made that change and they’re actually transitioning to use Maine instead of master.

[00:43:53] And it’s just one of those things that’s like, it’s so ingrained in your [00:44:00] language that until someone even pointed it out, it didn’t even Dawn on me. That that was a problematic. And obviously, you know, I’m not, I, I have an understanding of, of how problematic that term is, but it just was never connected.

[00:44:15] Max: So we got to get plugged that into. Yeah. And you know, and we can plug that into BDSM too, because there is like master. And save play, you know, and I think a lot about like, where did that come from? And like, why, and like, why this, why to people like that, that, and I’m not wanting to kink shame, you know?

[00:44:32] But like, let’s just think about it, you know? Like let’s just think about it a little bit. Let’s think about like, what was this handed down from, you know, and what are the historical context of this? And then, you know, certainly people can go look it up, but like, that was real, like forcing enslaved people to like reproduce, um, having people who did own enslaved people, you know, sexually assaulting them, raping them, um, to have them reproduce like, or [00:45:00] not just for pleasure, just because they liked inflicting pain.

[00:45:02] Right. Like for all of these different reasons. And then it’s like, like, yeah, like, well, what does it say that now there’s like these like white people that are like, I love like master and like slave play. And it’s like, that’s disgusting, honestly. But like also, like I get it like, okay, it’s one thing to be like, I like Dom sub play.

[00:45:16] Okay. But like, what’s the language that we’re using. I’m like, why do you know what I mean? Yeah. 

[00:45:22] Mike: For, um, power exchange now being used a lot. Right. Which I think is, is, um, it, from the people I’ve talked to in power exchange relationships, it feels very much the same dynamic without the problematic language of yeah.

[00:45:40] Yeah. Because yeah, that, I mean kinks or kinks, I think there’s nothing as long as what you’re doing doesn’t cause nonconsensual harm. Um, I’m not really right, but I [00:46:00] have to say yeah, because I’ve had to

[00:46:04] harm might be okay. But if, if that’s what you’re looking for, but. 

[00:46:10] Max: Definitely. Yeah. You know, and again, it’s, I really don’t, it’s, I’m not interested in kink shaming, but I am interested in thinking about how are we describing it. Right. And how is what’s the language we’re using and who gets to use that language and who feels comfortable with that language and why?

[00:46:22] Um, I think that’s a meaningful conversation, but certainly yeah, whatever, like high closed doors, if you’re both into it, or if not just both, if all of you are into it, whoever you may be, uh, you know, go for it. But 

[00:46:35] Mike: yeah, it’s true. They kink itself in the things you’re doing. It’s just the descriptive, like almost like, like our language is evolving or people are complex or things that I’ve heard somewhere.

[00:46:46] I don’t know. Certainly. So cool. Well, you know, it’s so funny because, um, yeah, we, we, we tried this a few years ago and my complete lack [00:47:00] of knowing how to work our recording, we didn’t actually get to do it, but it’s fun because. I remember the conversation we had and the, just the difference ways you’re describing yourself today, versus the way you’re describing yourself back then.

[00:47:18] And I remember during that time, I was like, wow, this person really understands themselves and has really evolved and grown and knows a lot. And

[00:47:30] like, you know, even more about yourself in your life, just the ability to, to grow and develop and learn about yourself and be able to be like, that’s okay. That’s who I was then. And this is who I am now is, is really, really pretty amazing. Like,

[00:47:56] I’m sure you said something really awesome. Right? Just now. 

[00:48:02] [00:48:00] Max: Uh, yeah, it’s been a process and a process. It’s the process? It is, um, I feel like one of my, one of my like kinks, if you will, is like a never-ending quest for knowledge. Like, I just feel like, I don’t know if it’s like a neurodivergent thing or if it’s just like a lifelong learner thing.

[00:48:21] I think it’s a little bit of both because I get on these like tears where I just like will spend hours on the computer reading articles about like a super specific thing. Um, I have to say having access to an academic, uh, like database for articles and stuff is like one of my life’s greatest pleasures.

[00:48:40] Um, I really enjoy it. And that’s like, just what I like to do. Like I was telling my therapist the other day, like he was, we were trying to, I was trying to explain to him why, like, relationships can feel hard for me sometimes. And I was explaining that like, I feel more connected to knowledge and information a lot of the times than I do too [00:49:00] people.

[00:49:01] And I don’t know, I don’t know where that comes from necessarily. I’m still learning about it and trying to figure it out a little bit and also just like accepting it for what it is, but I just really love to learn. And of course, like, I love to learn about the things that are impactful in my own life, but that certainly that extends to me understanding just the communities that I live in or that I’m a part of, whether it’s the queer community, the trans community, um, the autistic community.

[00:49:28] Um, and then certainly by extension, like the world around me rash. Um, but I just see it from these sort of intersectional places. And I think I do attribute like that certainly to sort of the ways that I progressed throughout the world is because I’m just always like seeking information. Like I love information.

[00:49:48] I really love information. Um, And I love being able to make my own decision about information. So I do oftentimes also look up articles that are maybe like against the thing that I’m interested in, or that are like, [00:50:00] here’s why diagnosing people with this thing is like the greatest thing ever. And here’s why this like, terrible evidence-based treatment is like the greatest thing ever.

[00:50:06] And then I read it and I’m usually like, no, I disagree, but I can understand why they feel this way, but here. But like, you know, I don’t necessarily, but I, I do find it meaningful to get information from lots of different sources. And I, I do enjoy doing that to a certain extent. Um, so I don’t know for what it’s worth, that’s how I like to move through the world.

[00:50:28] Maybe I should add something about information to my list of identities.

[00:50:35] Mike: You mean just the kink is collecting information, not necessarily 

[00:50:40] Max: a data seeker. 

[00:50:42] Mike: I love it because I was wondering, cause I actually interviewed a kink collector once and. She was kind of like that, but specifically for kinks.

[00:50:54] Max: What does that mean? Like they just like, try it out.   

[00:50:57] Mike: I mean, her identity was, uh, having her a [00:51:00] lot of hers was around. Um, if it brings you pleasure I’m I, it brings me pleasure and, but she was like, yeah, I’ve tried this, I tried this, I tried this didn’t like this didn’t like that love that, you know, and just like all the things.

[00:51:15] And it was like, A seeker of information. Like, I mean, it was literally like, like you just described, but specifically about kinks, like I just want to learn what it is by trying it out and, 

[00:51:25] Max: and also trying versus intellectualizing because I hate trying new things. Can I, I hate, I hate change. I hate, uh, transitioning to different spaces.

[00:51:36] I hate transitioning to different activities. Um, but I like learning different things all the time, but I don’t like doing different things all the time. 

[00:51:45] Mike: Just soaking up all the information and learning basically sense. Yeah. That makes sense. Wow. That’s the one, that’s the one. So this conversation went in no [00:52:00] way, like I thought it was going to, and it was amazing.

[00:52:04] It is amazing. So thank you very much. This is really cool. Um, we’ve hit a lot. Uh, was there anything else I know, like. You’re kind of in a, in a space of working to build your own, um, career and obviously still evolving and stuff. Was there anything in there that we didn’t talk about that you want to talk about?

[00:52:31] Or, 

[00:52:33] Max: um, I mean, I guess just for like listeners’ sake, like I didn’t, I’ve never really talked about like what I do, quote unquote, um, which is many, many things. And, um, I. You know, right now I work at a skate shop, um, which like, I love to build rollerskates and that’s, I’m like kind of the main skate tech there at five stride here in Brooklyn.

[00:52:56] And that’s like been really fun and I owned a skate shop before, but I hate retail and [00:53:00] I hate capitalism. So it’s a little complicated, it’s a complicated relationship. Um, but I also do, as I do consulting work, um, and I do like workshops and educational work, and then I’m trying to build a career. I don’t even know what a career is, so I’m not going to use that word.

[00:53:17] I’m trying to find some work and do some things for like some longterm type of market work, um, as a therapist. So, um, right now, like I’m in the process of a contract with like a school district here in New York, under a program at NYU called the nest program. And it’s like an inclusive education program.

[00:53:36] It’s a neuro-diversity education. Program, essentially where each school has, like, um, what are they called? They’re called like a master of inclusive education or whatever. Um, I think that’s what they’re called. Um, and they consult with like the teachers at the school and they work like one-on-one with students who are on the spectrum to like help basically ensure like success with [00:54:00] our education, but also to sort of incorporate like their special interests and their strengths and their skills.

[00:54:05] And what I am doing is once a month, I meet with all of those master. Um, and like educate like inclusive education specialists, um, through the nest program. And so I’m sort of consulting with all of them. Um, I’m this is the first time I’ve really done it. I’m not sure exactly how it’s going to evolve, but I imagine it’ll, it will also mean that I’m meeting one-on-one with some of them over time to support them as needed.

[00:54:29] Um, and I do some like research stuff, which is on hold right now because COVID has been kind of weird, but I, I do like research around autism and right now we’re finishing up a paper on like special interests in the classroom. So like, how do teachers utilize autistic special interest in the classroom, if at all?

[00:54:47] And how do they view them? Like, what are their attitudes towards them essentially? You know? And of course we’re finding that most teachers attitudes are that they’re like problematic. Like, like for instance, for me, like mental health is certainly one of my special interests. I think about it all the time.

[00:55:00] [00:54:59] I talk about it all the time. I read about it all the time. Um, so I went to a program about it, but if I were in another program, I would want to work it into a lot of stuff. But a lot of teachers, especially in elementary school, find that to be very distracting, very difficult, very, um, problematic. And so we’re basically making a case that like, it’s actually not, and it could create, create career opportunities for these students further down the line.

[00:55:23] Um, so some research stuff, qualitative, we have mostly, and then, um, like independent workshops and stuff. So I just get hired

[00:55:36] or groups of people who want me to come speak about stuff that we spoke about today. So, um, the history of psychiatry, psychiatry, and psychology, um, the history of, of sort of disabilities. So sort of from like the rights model to the social model, to the disability justice model, breaking, talking about some of that talking about also like I just did a really cool workshop about disability and able [00:56:00] as in sports.

[00:56:01] Um, so working with sports organizations to be more inclusive, especially of people with different learning styles, um, different styles of interacting with people. Um, and then, yeah, I’m looking for work right now, basically with my limited permit as like a mental health counselor, um, particularly areas of like sexuality and gender and disability.

[00:56:23] Um, so it’s a lot I like to do. I’d like to do many, I like to have sort of many pots on the stove that are all related to my various sort of specific interests as much as I can. But, um, yeah. So, and I just, I don’t like to always be like doing like the same task every single day, but I like to keep it within my wheelhouse, if that makes sense.

[00:56:44] So this idea that like, I don’t like to do different stuff necessarily, but I like the opportunity to like, you know, Do all of the things that I like to do over time as I can. 

[00:56:55] Mike: I like that. That’s amazing. 

[00:57:00] [00:56:59] Max: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know. I don’t even really know. I don’t know what a career is because I feel like I just work jobs all the time, you know, I just like, um, yeah.

[00:57:08] Market work. I don’t know. It’s weird. 

[00:57:11] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. You gotta right now to survive. Cause that’s the way we’re set up. But I mean, it’s cool that you’re getting to do things. You’re getting to do some things that are like, they’re interesting to you and you’re making a difference in the world with them. So whether you’re doing it, 

[00:57:32] Max: I mean they’re all really needed.

[00:57:34] Yeah. 

[00:57:36] Mike: That’s cool. That is very cool. 

[00:57:39] Max: Yeah. I hope to eventually be able to put out some more independent research. There’s definitely a hole, but I have like a whole list of research projects I’m interested in. I just got to. The whole planning, the whole ADHD and like planning thing. Like, I’m just like, I don’t know where to start.

[00:57:52] I don’t know what to do. I am not even sure I’d be able to finish it, but I have ideas I am. And I’m an idea person, you know, I have lots of [00:58:00] ideas for qualitative stuff. I’d love to do. I just got to figure out like, do I want to do it through a PhD program? Do I need to just get plugged in with someone who works somewhere and they want to have me work under them and they’ll bring me on as like an assistant, you know, Sure pie or something like that.

[00:58:16] I don’t know. We’ll see. Yeah. We’ll see where life takes me, I guess. 

[00:58:20] Mike: Well, if someone wants to do that, it’s just going to get ahold of you or how can I 

[00:58:25] Max: get up? Yeah. Ah, yeah. I mean, sure. Yeah. Bring me on, I’ll do research for you. I don’t care. I just, I just want a place to do it. I don’t even care how much you pay me really.

[00:58:32] I mean, money does that needs the other big thing. I’m like time and money don’t make sense to me, but fine. Um, also I am bad at retail and owning a business, which is why I don’t know the skate shop anymore because I just was getting literally everyone discounts all the time. It didn’t work out, but, um, but yeah.

[00:58:49] Mike: As in the foundation you laid there, I literally just bought a pair of skates from that very skate shop that you started. Yeah. 

[00:58:57] Max: Oh 

[00:58:57] Mike: yeah. Yeah. [00:59:00] It gets sometimes you just start cool things and then someone else runs with the cool part, the rest of it. And that’s, 

[00:59:06] Max: that’s just that maybe that’s my. Maybe that’s my life’s mission.

[00:59:11] Just starting electrical stuff, never finishing any of it, but starting it. Um, but yeah, I mean, if people, if folks want to get in touch, I guess, um, I haven’t been on social media for like, can you hear that? 

[00:59:23] Mike: There’s a siren, it’s New York, you know,

[00:59:29] Max: want to get ahold of me? Um, I haven’t been on social media and I really in like probably the last month. Um, I have, I don’t know, I hate social media for the most part, but I am pretty much only on Instagram. Uh, I’ll probably get back on at some point. I don’t know when, so if you’re reaching out to me, like immediately, I don’t, I, you know, I’ll try my best.

[00:59:47] Um, but it’s at max Welp, like Welp throwing my hands up in the air. I don’t know. Um, but it’s at, and then M a X, w H E L P and then probably the [01:00:00] best email that I use mostly for like stuff related to this is my NYU email, which is M S. Like max Schneider, one, one, two, four, Um, that’s where I do most of my like consulting and workshoppy businessy stuff.

[01:00:20] Um, and I check that email more regularly than some of my others, so yeah. Yeah.

[01:00:29] Eventually maybe I’ll have a website I’ve started like three different websites, but 

[01:00:34] Mike: yeah, me too.

[01:00:36]Max: Cool. I many websites never finished them and they’re back to a place where I felt like they worked. You know, 

[01:00:44] Mike: I do understand that maybe someday. Cool. Well, thank you max. For this. It’s been awesome. And, uh, we’ll have to do this again sometime. Maybe we’ll try again in a couple of years. 

[01:00:58] Max: Yeah, sure. I [01:01:00] mean, thanks for having me.

[01:01:00] I didn’t really, I mean, I went more of the mental health route than like the kink and sexuality routes. That is absolutely fine. 

[01:01:08] Mike: It is it’s cause I mean, it’s part of who you are as a human. And like I said, I think it informs your identity. Um, it’s really cool. And it’s, it’s something that in the, um, LGBT community is a big thing right now, like mental health care for LGBTQ people, something to talk about.

[01:01:34] So, absolutely. No, it’s

[01:01:40] Max: definitely cool. Well, thank you. And for your flexibility, you know, I know my life’s been kind of wild lately, so 

[01:01:47] Mike: it’s all good. It’s fun 

[01:01:49] Max: to do. I’ve been able to reschedule. 

[01:01:51] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. It’s good.



Clive and Julianna

It’s been a while! Running a podcast in your spare time can be a challenge sometimes, and work and life commitments got in the way for a bit, but the guests I interviewed still deserve to be heard!

A couple of weeks ago, I was contacted by Clive and Julianna, who wanted to have me as a guest on their podcast: Re-sex, where they discuss sexual experiences and kinks that they have changed their approach to. Of course, I said yes, and we had a great conversation. This is the discussion we had, which you can also hear on their podcast, along with other great interviews they’ve had. We talk about podcasting, life in and after the pandemic, and how we all have learned and evolved into the people we are today.

That conversation with Clive and Julianna inspired me to get back on track, and over the next few weeks, I’ll be posting catching up and posting interviews of the great people I talked to.

I sincerely apologize to my guests who I interviewed last year. The lateness of these posts is a reflection on my own time management and definitely not an indication of the value of your amazing conversations!

I hope everyone gets as much as I have out of these illuminating discussions.

Show Notes


In this episode, I’m catching up with Michael, who I talked to during my Intersections project. If you haven’t heard it yet, you can listen to that conversation in the From the Vault episode that was posted a couple weeks ago. Michael is a gay man who was married to a straight woman. They’re no longer married but still have a great family relationship. We had a great conversation about his journey of discovery as a gay man, gay culture versus being gay, the fascinating LGBTQ cultural history of Oklahoma City, and more.

This is the dissertation on Oklahoma City we talked about: Emergence and Evolution of the Gay and Bisexual Male Subculture in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 1889–2005

I also wanted to share what Michael shared with me in a follow-up email:

I attached the dissertation that started my interest in local gay history.  I suspect that young historians in other small cities have dome similar but it is not like there is a good resource collecting all of them.  And if there isn’t maybe it is a jumping-off point for one of your listeners to dig for histories in their own city.  One thing I didn’t mention was that with this dissertation i worked up a tour of OKC and have taken a few friends on a good two-mile walk around downtown looking at where places used to be, and telling stories, some of which I admit to embellishing.

I think we all spend our lives thinking we are so unique, then we get older and realize that over the last ten or so thousand years that there have been others just like us but with vastly different societal pressures.  When I read the stories in that paper, or in some of the other resources I have collected, I can picture some dude trying to navigate his feelings, his wants, his desires, and thinking he was some kind of weirdo.  For me it is a great feeling to know that there are other weirdos out there, during all times, just stumbling around and doing their best.  In the end, we are crazy naked monkeys who have the fortune (or misfortune) to be self-aware.  Just crazy naked self-aware monkeys on a chaotic rock hurtling through space trying to make sense of the nonsensical.